Guarantee Group boarding photo

Cam Houseman

Cam Houseman

Member
Hi Cam,

I don't have real photos on hand but I can identify some of the members from the boarding photo seen in the documentary. As far as I know, starting on the right is Mr Roderick Chisholm, Mr Thomas Andrews Jr, Mr Thomas Millar, Mr Anthony "Archie" Frost and then Mr. Alfred Cunningham.

You're right, it is interesting to compare how they looked in the documentary with how they looked in real life. I'll be away to find some real photos to do that - probably in the records here at ET.
Thanks for your photos too!
Good Morning (Afternoon for you)

Thanks Kate, This is interesting. I had seen "Birth of A Legend" but that was a couple years ago.
I have pictures of each Guarantee Gang member

Mr. Rodrick Chisholm, 45
1621253967551


Mr. William Parr (who can be seen in the background of the famous Gymnasium photo with Mr. McCrawley, the Gym instructor), 30
1621254006513


Mr. Anthony "Artie" Frost, 38
1621254078759


Mr. Robert Knight, 43
1621254101156


Mr. Alfred "Alfie" Cunningham, 22
1621254132840


Mr. William Campbell (there are no known adult pictures, I think), 21

1621254169434


Mr. Francis "Frank" Parkes, 22
Francis Parkes


And Mr. Ennis Watson, 18
1621254296892


Mr. Parkes, Watson, Campbell, and Cunningham shared E-73. Mr. Frost held E-75 with Mr. Knight, while Mr. Parr held E-27, one of the "Flex" (meaning they could be First/second depending on if the each class is overbooked, so they could be counted as First or second) Cabins on the starboard side of E-Deck. Mr. Chisholm held C-60, on the portside of C-Deck.

Thanks to Thomas Krom for helping with the research a while back.
I hope this helps Kate :)
Great photograph Bob! Definitely Olympic.
If that is the guarantee group, no idea. Do you know the source for it?
I do not think this is the Guarantee Gang, as none of these men look alike. The man on the second-left looks like Mr. Francis Parkes, but his ears are different and his hair is too dark.
 
Kate Powell

Kate Powell

Member
Good Morning (Afternoon for you)

Thanks Kate, This is interesting. I had seen "Birth of A Legend" but that was a couple years ago.
I have pictures of each Guarantee Gang member

Mr. Rodrick Chisholm, 45
View attachment 76693

Mr. William Parr (who can be seen in the background of the famous Gymnasium photo with Mr. McCrawley, the Gym instructor), 30
View attachment 76694

Mr. Anthony "Artie" Frost, 38
View attachment 76695

Mr. Robert Knight, 43
View attachment 76696

Mr. Alfred "Alfie" Cunningham, 22
View attachment 76697

Mr. William Campbell (there are no known adult pictures, I think), 21

View attachment 76698

Mr. Francis "Frank" Parkes, 22
View attachment 76699

And Mr. Ennis Watson, 18
View attachment 76700

Mr. Parkes, Watson, Campbell, and Cunningham shared E-73. Mr. Frost held E-75 with Mr. Knight, while Mr. Parr held E-27, one of the "Flex" (meaning they could be First/second depending on if the each class is overbooked, so they could be counted as First or second) Cabins on the starboard side of E-Deck. Mr. Chisholm held C-60, on the portside of C-Deck.

Thanks to Thomas Krom for helping with the research a while back.
I hope this helps Kate :)

I do not think this is the Guarantee Gang, as none of these men look alike. The man on the second-left looks like Mr. Francis Parkes, but his ears are different and his hair is too dark.
Thank you for the photos and the information on their rooms, Cam.
I'm pleased 'Birth of a Legend' featured the Guarantee Group and told us a little about their backgrounds and personal stories. Not sure about any inaccuracies in the documentary although I'm pretty sure Thomas Millar was an engineer, not deck crew as shown in the documentary.

Mr. Parr, Mr Knight, Mr Campbell, Mr Parkes and Mr Watson did not appear in the documentary, at least I didn't spot them and that was a shame.
It was terrible that every member of the Guarantee Group was lost.

Also, 'Birth of a Legend' features the only time Mr Alexander Carlisle appears on screen, that I know of. The former Chief Designer of the Olympic Class liners. That was an interesting inclusion.

In the other photo, I agree with you. I don't think that's the Guarantee gang either. I hope we find out who they are.
 
Seumas

Seumas

Member
Thank you for the photos and the information on their rooms, Cam.
I'm pleased 'Birth of a Legend' featured the Guarantee Group and told us a little about their backgrounds and personal stories. Not sure about any inaccuracies in the documentary although I'm pretty sure Thomas Millar was an engineer, not deck crew as shown in the documentary.

Mr. Parr, Mr Knight, Mr Campbell, Mr Parkes and Mr Watson did not appear in the documentary, at least I didn't spot them and that was a shame.
It was terrible that every member of the Guarantee Group was lost.

Also, 'Birth of a Legend' features the only time Mr Alexander Carlisle appears on screen, that I know of. The former Chief Designer of the Olympic Class liners. That was an interesting inclusion.

In the other photo, I agree with you. I don't think that's the Guarantee gang either. I hope we find out who they are.
You are correct. Thomas Millar was the Titanic's assistant deck engineer rather than one of the AB's as the film portrays him.

There were a few other errors in the film.

  • Today there is a lot of scepticism of the story regarding the dinner party in London where the Olympic class were supposedly first conceived of.
  • They got William Pirrie's political views all mixed up. In the film, Pirrie is portrayed as an Irish nationalist who supports Home Rule for Ireland. In reality was a moderate unionist who wanted to find a compromise with the Home Rulers and abhorred anti-Catholicism. This set him at odds with the militant unionists who were also deeply anti-Catholic.
  • Every rivet in the Titanic is seen to be hammered in individually in the film. This is wrong. Most of the rivets were inserted using powerful electric riveting machines that hung down from the gantries. Only the rivets in certain curved sections and tight corners were the ones that had to be hammered in.
  • Alexander Carlisle's supposedly principled resignation over the reduction in lifeboat numbers is a myth of his own creation. The film also implies that he retired after leaving H&W, he did not. Carlisle subsequently took on a job with the Wellin company.
  • Roderick Chisholm is portrayed as an Ulsterman when he was actually a Scotsman.
All in all however it wasn't a bad drama-documentary and they certainly did well considering they did not have a huge budget available. I liked it.
 
Cam Houseman

Cam Houseman

Member
Thank you for the photos and the information on their rooms, Cam.
I'm pleased 'Birth of a Legend' featured the Guarantee Group and told us a little about their backgrounds and personal stories. Not sure about any inaccuracies in the documentary although I'm pretty sure Thomas Millar was an engineer, not deck crew as shown in the documentary.

Mr. Parr, Mr Knight, Mr Campbell, Mr Parkes and Mr Watson did not appear in the documentary, at least I didn't spot them and that was a shame.
It was terrible that every member of the Guarantee Group was lost.

Also, 'Birth of a Legend' features the only time Mr Alexander Carlisle appears on screen, that I know of. The former Chief Designer of the Olympic Class liners. That was an interesting inclusion.

In the other photo, I agree with you. I don't think that's the Guarantee gang either. I hope we find out who they are.
You are most welcome! I agree about the Guarantee Gang, most of them were young, and the older guys like Mr. Parr, Mr. Chisholm, and Mr. Frost were married, so I imagine their poor wives and children must've been devastated :(


Good on them for portraying Mr. Carlisle, many documentaries and books skip over this fact!
You are correct. Thomas Millar was the Titanic's assistant deck engineer rather than one of the AB's as the film portrays him.

There were a few other errors in the film.

  • Today there is a lot of scepticism of the story regarding the dinner party in London where the Olympic class were supposedly first conceived of.
  • They got William Pirrie's political views all mixed up. In the film, Pirrie is portrayed as an Irish nationalist who supports Home Rule for Ireland. In reality was a moderate unionist who wanted to find a compromise with the Home Rulers and abhorred anti-Catholicism. This set him at odds with the militant unionists who were also deeply anti-Catholic.
  • Every rivet in the Titanic is seen to be hammered in individually in the film. This is wrong. Most of the rivets were inserted using powerful electric riveting machines that hung down from the gantries. Only the rivets in certain curved sections and tight corners were the ones that had to be hammered in.
  • Alexander Carlisle's supposedly principled resignation over the reduction in lifeboat numbers is a myth of his own creation. The film also implies that he retired after leaving H&W, he did not. Carlisle subsequently took on a job with the Wellin company.
  • Roderick Chisholm is portrayed as an Ulsterman when he was actually a Scotsman.
All in all however it wasn't a bad drama-documentary and they certainly did well considering they did not have a huge budget available. I liked it.
From what I remember, it was alright, I was mostly more fascinated by the Shipyard construction than the personal drama, although I could be mixing that up with "Blood and Steel?"
Another error is that she launched with an Enclosed A-Deck promenade, which is not true (Although I think we all know, here's a photo just in case)
1621272908072


May 31st, 1911, taken by Robert Welch
1621273037276


I've seen a picture of the riveting machine in the 1911 Shipbuilder magazine, I'll have to check later
 
Steven Christian

Steven Christian

Member
That's a good photo of a riveting machine in use.

04:52 to see one in action during the building of the Olympic.
Nice. I've been to that site many times but don't know how I missed this. Will save it to my files. Thanks!
P.S...Having been around a lot of work similar to this I always cringe when I see people standing under suspended loads like in the vid. But unfortunantley people still do it today.
 
Seumas

Seumas

Member
Nice. I've been to that site many times but don't know how I missed this. Will save it to my files. Thanks!
P.S...Having been around a lot of work similar to this I always cringe when I see people standing under suspended loads like in the vid. But unfortunantley people still do it today.
I first saw it on the BFI's online archive a few years ago and was mesmerized by it. It's a lovely piece of history alright.

The BFI's online archive also has footage of the Celtic's launch in 1901 - the BFI's website only lets UK users watch it however.

I imagine you'll have seen British Pathe's films of the Britannic's launch and fitting out ?

There is extant footage of the Oceanic's launch in 1899 on Youtube. Watch as the crowd try and avoid getting splashed by her wake as she enters the water !

There are two sadly lost films concerning the Olympic and the Titanic that have been rather forgotten about. These two films are in all honesty probably lost forever (the last prints likely having being destroyed or deteriorated many decades ago) but which would be simply jaw dropping if by a miracle they could be found.

The first is a short film taken of the Titanic's actual launch.

A copy of this film may have been in H&W's possession as late as the fifties. William MacQuitty heard that the company had a film of the launch in their possession and enquired if they could use it in ANTR which was in pre-production. However, MacQuitty received a rather rude reply from H&W that neither confirmed nor denied they had the film and even tried to discourage him from pursuing anything regarding the Titanic. Even over forty years later, the Titanic disaster was still a touchy subject for H&W.

The second is a short early colour film that was shot aboard the Olympic shortly after she entered service.

According to a contemporary newspaper account of the film it had footage of Edward Smith "and his officers" - which may mean that one or more of Henry Wilde, William Murdoch, Hugh McElroy or William O'Loughlin perhaps made an appearance.
 
Cam Houseman

Cam Houseman

Member
I first saw it on the BFI's online archive a few years ago and was mesmerized by it. It's a lovely piece of history alright.

The BFI's online archive also has footage of the Celtic's launch in 1901 - the BFI's website only lets UK users watch it however.

I imagine you'll have seen British Pathe's films of the Britannic's launch and fitting out ?

There is extant footage of the Oceanic's launch in 1899 on Youtube. Watch as the crowd try and avoid getting splashed by her wake as she enters the water !

There are two sadly lost films concerning the Olympic and the Titanic that have been rather forgotten about. These two films are in all honesty probably lost forever (the last prints likely having being destroyed or deteriorated many decades ago) but which would be simply jaw dropping if by a miracle they could be found.

The first is a short film taken of the Titanic's actual launch.

A copy of this film may have been in H&W's possession as late as the fifties. William MacQuitty heard that the company had a film of the launch in their possession and enquired if they could use it in ANTR which was in pre-production. However, MacQuitty received a rather rude reply from H&W that neither confirmed nor denied they had the film and even tried to discourage him from pursuing anything regarding the Titanic. Even over forty years later, the Titanic disaster was still a touchy subject for H&W.

The second is a short early colour film that was shot aboard the Olympic shortly after she entered service.

According to a contemporary newspaper account of the film it had footage of Edward Smith "and his officers" - which may mean that one or more of Henry Wilde, William Murdoch, Hugh McElroy or William O'Loughlin perhaps made an appearance.
I think them not saying yes or no is basically a yes, IMO. I also heard there is film about the Titanic prior to launch.

AND, there was someone filming the new collision between the New York and the Titanic, but the man died in the tragedy
 
Steven Christian

Steven Christian

Member
I first saw it on the BFI's online archive a few years ago and was mesmerized by it. It's a lovely piece of history alright.

The BFI's online archive also has footage of the Celtic's launch in 1901 - the BFI's website only lets UK users watch it however.

I imagine you'll have seen British Pathe's films of the Britannic's launch and fitting out ?

There is extant footage of the Oceanic's launch in 1899 on Youtube. Watch as the crowd try and avoid getting splashed by her wake as she enters the water !

There are two sadly lost films concerning the Olympic and the Titanic that have been rather forgotten about. These two films are in all honesty probably lost forever (the last prints likely having being destroyed or deteriorated many decades ago) but which would be simply jaw dropping if by a miracle they could be found.

The first is a short film taken of the Titanic's actual launch.

A copy of this film may have been in H&W's possession as late as the fifties. William MacQuitty heard that the company had a film of the launch in their possession and enquired if they could use it in ANTR which was in pre-production. However, MacQuitty received a rather rude reply from H&W that neither confirmed nor denied they had the film and even tried to discourage him from pursuing anything regarding the Titanic. Even over forty years later, the Titanic disaster was still a touchy subject for H&W.

The second is a short early colour film that was shot aboard the Olympic shortly after she entered service.

According to a contemporary newspaper account of the film it had footage of Edward Smith "and his officers" - which may mean that one or more of Henry Wilde, William Murdoch, Hugh McElroy or William O'Loughlin perhaps made an appearance.
"I imagine you'll have seen British Pathe's films of the Britannic's launch and fitting out ?"
Yes. That's a good site. I posted that site in another thread recently. Cheers.
 
Seumas

Seumas

Member
I think them not saying yes or no is basically a yes, IMO. I also heard there is film about the Titanic prior to launch.

AND, there was someone filming the new collision between the New York and the Titanic, but the man died in the tragedy
There was certainly a film taken and there are newspaper notices advertising it being exhibited in Ulster and Northern England during 1911.

Just what happened to the prints after that is a mystery. One possibility is that in the aftermath of the disaster H&W bought them all from the distributor.

According to Dr Paul Lee a warehouse used by H&W for storing records burnt down during the seventies. If H&W did have a copy of the Titanic launch film, it may well have gone up in smoke.

Aye, your right. Lawrence Beesley noticed William Harbeck frantically cranking away at his camera and recording the heart stopping "will it hit us or won't it ?" moment with the SS New York at Southampton. We all know what happened to that footage !

The Olympic "kinemacolour" film is the one I would love to see.
 
I

Ioannis Georgiou

Member
I do not think this is the Guarantee Gang, as none of these men look alike. The man on the second-left looks like Mr. Francis Parkes, but his ears are different and his hair is too dark.

The question was about the guarantee group of Olympic in 1911 which were not the same persons who were later on Titanic aside from Andrews
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
Joey Thompson who was a painter and decorator meant to give the Titanic a final touch before departing; left in Southampton before or during the departure on the 10th of April.
Thanks for that information. Until today, I had missed the fact that Joseph Thompson disembarked in Southampton and so unlike the other GG members on board, did not die in the sinking.

However, that did not help the poor man. He died from an industrial injury 5 years later, aged only 39 years.
 
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