H & W Guarantee Group before commanded by Anderws

[Steve Krienke]

When Alexander Carlisle was the head of the Guarantee group, was Andrews just another designer?

In my play, which some have heard about, I want to show Carlisle briefing the other members of the group on what some of the major attractions will be in the ship

....would andrews be in there?

Steve Krienke

 

[Marilyn Lena Penner]

I should leave it to those who can verify, but I thought that Carlisle was head of Harland & Wolff and Andrews was H & W's chief designer - the man who worked out the practicals of Ismay's concept of the Olympic class ships. The architect in charge of the project, to whom the foremen of the construction crews reported.

When Titanic sailed, he was on board. He would have been the man to whom the rest of H & W's guarantee group reported. He was the man the Captain summoned after the collision to determine if the ship was sinking. Had he survived, he would have reported to Mr. Carlisle back in Belfast.

Now, I've read only the second hand stuff: Lord, Eaton & Haas, Marcus, etc. but that was the impression that they gave me.

Marilyn P.

 

[Steve Krienke]

I think Andrews would have reported to Pirrie...if he had survived...not Carlisle....Carlisle retired in 1910...

What exactley would be the different between the Head of H and W and the Chief Designer? The head is like the owner?

Steve Krienke

 

[Steve Krienke]

May I also add, Im not stupid when it comes to Titanic. Sometimes, I just have mulitple brain farts

Steve Krienke

 

[Anonymous Titanic Fan]

As far as I know, Andrews was in charge of Harland & Wolff's design department (also a nephew of Lord Pirrie, the owner of that shipbuilding company), and Carlisle was the general manager of the shipyard. (He left H&W's in 1910, before the Titanic project was finished.) I may be mistaken, though.

 

[William D. O'Neil]

After Harland and Wolff themselves ceased to take an active part in the firm, Pirie became the managing partner and chairman. Carlisle, his brother-in-law, was chairman of the managing directors and yard manager until he retired in 1910. At that point, Andrews moved up from chief designer to be yard manager as well, throwing more work on Wilding.

 

[DonJ]

After Harland and Wolff themselves ceased to take an active part in the firm, Pirie became the managing partner and chairman. Carlisle, his brother-in-law, was chairman of the managing directors and yard manager until he retired in 1910. At that point, Andrews moved up from chief designer to be yard manager as well, throwing more work on Wilding.

One aspect of Carlisle's work was the positioning of lifeboats. His first plans: for Olympic & Titanic show 12 boats each side but someone decided to remove the centre four boats each side. Carlisle responded that, since boats 1 and 2 were kept swung out as emergency boats, he put another boat on chocks underneath to try to give more boats but these were quickly removed so Carlisle got in touch with Axel Welling in Sweden who came up with the WELLING DOUBLE ACTING DAVITS these could take FOUR boats on each set of sixteen sets of davits. Carlisle submitted a blueprint showing this to H & W, White Star and Board of Trade but within seven days 64 boats became 48 then 32 and back to 16. Now there could only have been one place where this decision was made WHITE STAR and Bruce Ismay. Ismay claimed that he saw every diagram and chart but at the British Enquiry he stated that he had never seen any plans suggesting more boats but, when White star joined Cunard all WS papers were taken about two hundred yards to the Cunard Building and put in the basement. When Cunard moved to Southampton all archive papers were taken along Liverpool Pier head to the Maritime Museum and among them was found, a copy of Carisle's blue print for 64 boats. Apparently Carlisle was so annoyed about all these reduction that he resigned and went to work with Wellins.
Lord Pirrie was Chair of H&W with Andrews (his nephew) as Chief designer. Pirrie was supposed to have gone with the Guarantee team but took ill two weeks before sailing and Andrews took over. My Grandfather was also supposed to have been on the GT but was taken ill two weeks before sailing and his place was taken by Apprentice Carpenter William Campbell. My mother was born two year after the sinking.

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

One aspect of Carlisle's work was the positioning of lifeboats. His first plans: for Olympic & Titanic show 12 boats each side but someone decided to remove the centre four boats each side. Carlisle responded that, since boats 1 and 2 were kept swung out as emergency boats, he put another boat on chocks underneath to try to give more boats but these were quickly removed so Carlisle got in touch with Axel Welling in Sweden who came up with the WELLING DOUBLE ACTING DAVITS these could take FOUR boats on each set of sixteen sets of davits.

That story is partly new for me. Carlisle wanted the Welin Davits because he was sure that the government & BOT would change the rules and would call for more boats for larger ships.

Carlisle submitted a blueprint showing this to H & W, White Star and Board of Trade but within seven days 64 boats became 48 then 32 and back to 16. Now there could only have been one place where this decision was made WHITE STAR and Bruce Ismay. Ismay claimed that he saw every diagram and chart but at the British Enquiry he stated that he had never seen any plans suggesting more boats but, when White star joined Cunard all WS papers were taken about two hundred yards to the Cunard Building and put in the basement. When Cunard moved to Southampton all archive papers were taken along Liverpool Pier head to the Maritime Museum and among them was found, a copy of Carisle's blue print for 64 boats. Apparently Carlisle was so annoyed about all these reduction that he resigned and went to work with Wellins.

That was not the case. The deck plan show 32 boats, there was never a deck plan showing 64. And that is also what Ismay said which was the truth. The reduction had nothing to do with White Star and Bruce Ismay. By law the ship only need 16 lifeboats, Olympic & Titanic end up with 20. Carlisle retirement had nothing to do with the lifeboat question.

 

[Anna Simpson]

Yes but did Carlisle want 64 boats that just never made it into a deck plan?
I ask because I have heard that the '64 lifeboat' number was in Andrews's notebook. I am wondering if there is any truth to the 64 lifeboats story, though I am beginning to doubt it after what you said.

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

Sadly there are many stories about the lifeboat question and some of them have the usual myth.

Carlisle first idea was that each davit should have 4 boats making a total of 64 boats. That is the reason why he contacted the Welin Quadrant Company. There was no deck plan showing the 64 boats. Carlisle only send a sketch showing 4 boats under a davit. He also stated during the British Inquiry that he himself thought that there should be 3 boats per davit, a total of 48. But again there was no deck plan showing it. In the meetings with Pirrie, Ismay and Sanderson Carlisle himself show only a plan of the davit set mentioning that it can hold up to 4 boats each.
The deck plan which was send over and reported to the BOT show only 2 boats on each davit a total of 32 but the plans send from H&W to the BOT (Design D) had only 16 boats (as required by law). [Some people read the 32 boat deckplan wrong because they show 2 boats per davit but also something which looks to be a 3rd one. But this "3rd" one is placed there in dotted lines which only indicates the changed position after one boat was lowered and the next one prepared to be lowered from the same davit. It is even stated so on the deck plan and have an additional sketch showing it, but it seems that some people did not want to see it.]

I think it should be also stated again that there was no fight between Carlisle Pirrie and Ismay. Even Carlisle said during the British Inquiry that he did not mentioned to Ismay and Pirrie that Olympic & Titanic should have more boats. All he did was to show them a plan of the welin davit and let them decide. [After he left H&W he said that those ships should have more boats, but on the other side he then singed a document which did not change the rules for more lifeboats.]

From what I see, it is again one of the usual story to show how bad Ismay was. Everything which went wrong is allotted to Ismay, as here with the lifeboat question.

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

Carlisle gave testimony in 1914 during the Limitation of liability hearing and I think this part show it much better what he said in 1912 during the British Inquiry;

Question; Did the plan which you submitted show accommodation for or a possibility of accommodating 64 boats? - Answer; No; it showed one pair of davits that you could work four boats on. (...)
Question; Did those plans which you submitted to them, show that as many as 64 lifeboats could have been fitted on to the "Titanic"? - Answer; No, there was no plan submitted showing 64 boats. It was only the set of davits that were shown.