Harland & Wolff Titanic Plans


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Jim Stein

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May 1, 2003
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Hi James
If you come across any plans for the following ships
Germanic yard #86 1875-1950
Britannic 1 yard #83 1874-1903
Oceanic 1 yard # 73 1871
Baltic 1 yard # 74 1871
Atlantic yard # 74 1871
Adriatic yard # 77 1872
I would be very interested, I'm mainly looking for the Body Plans but anything would help
Jim Stein
Australia
 

Bob Read

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Dec 9, 2000
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Daniel:

The sad thing for the researcher or the modeler is that these plans, photos, etc. have passed into the realm of collectibles or art. Their value is the same as that of a painting. That would be ok if the researcher or modeler could use a copy. I can have a copy of the Mona Lisa and enjoy it even though I know it is not an original. Likewise, as a researcher and modeler, I have little interest in the actual original plans per se. My interest is in the information they contain.

A personal sore point is that whether the holders of these materials be museums, societies,
or private collectors they seem to be loathe to share the information on the plans or photos with the larger Titanic research community.
For the life of me I can't understand why unless
they have come by such materials illegally or at the very least unethically.
I would be interested in seeing what would happen if those who were able to obtain copies prior to the "disappearances" would begin duplicating the copies they have for sale. I have a feeling that there would be no challenge to such an undertaking on any grounds. Since the
"hoarders" won't sell or share copies of what they have I would love to see a movement where the copies that are out there are duplicated in a wholesale manner.

Those who want copies of these plans, photos, etc. don't care about the originals anyway. I can't see what harm there would be in mass duplication of previous copies.

Thoughts anyone?

Regards,
Bob Read
 
Jul 9, 2000
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I wouldn't mind seeing copies of the real thing, though perhaps in a more managable size. Roy Mengot had the full sized copies which he brought to the Topeka gathering that Erik Wood hosted two years ago which he bought from Harland & Wolff. I'm still kicking myself for not making copies when the opportunity was there and sending them home via UPS, but I didn't have tons of cash in my pocket to pay for them.

They were fairly large too. Twenty feet some odd feet long in fact. I don't know where I would have kept them, but I would have found a way.
 

Inger Sheil

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quote:

Roy Mengot had the full sized copies which he brought to the Topeka gathering that Erik Wood hosted two years ago which he bought from Harland & Wolff.
Lol! That brings back happy memories of the 'scavenger hunt' game we had with Roy's plans in NY back in 2000...our team won (now who was on that again? Ro, Kathy, Phil...?), but Roy nearly inadvertantly gave the prize - some fiercely contested choco - to someone else.

Laying them out (and they covered a lot of floor space in the restaurant) enabled the demonstration of many a theory - from passenger and crew movements (e.g. my flatmate's ideas re the Andrews sighting near the fireplace) to the dynamics of the sinking.​
 
Jul 7, 2002
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Daniel,

What do you mean by Andrews' Notebook? The first page of copy I have says:

Drawing Office Copy.
Alterations in Blue as Vessel Left Belfast.
22/3/13 with Inner Skin Fitted.
Altered in Red up to date 23-1-12​

There are 57 single-sided pages with hand-written specs on all three Olympic class ships. Of course, it's black and white, but you can tell which info refers to which ship.

Are we talking about the same source?

You can still obtain this obscenely overpriced source from H&W for L75/$125. (I found out H&W had it when I was trying to track down an elusive source used by E&H.) I don't know why they didn't turn it over to UFTM with everything else.

Best wishes,

Cathy
 
Dec 7, 2000
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Cathy,

Yes we are talking about the same source, it isn't actually Andrews' personal notebook, but for some reason various things acquire unusual nicknames. It's like the "Cave List" -- if you read my recent article, the cabin list is one of at least two known copies (but there would have been more) but have been dubbed the "Cave List".

I'm pleased to hear this notebook is still around, last I heard it was no longer available, but that could have been applicable for the UFTM, and as you say, it is still at H&W. By the way, all the information in the book is regarding Olympic. Some of it may be applicable to Titanic as the ships were very similar, but the book itself is only about Olympic. Am I correct in assuming that you were searching for the Britannic detailed specification book, which is mentioned in the book on pp.30 - 31? There would have been a similar book for Olympic, and a separate one for Titanic. Neither of which are known to exist -- at least not to the general public. At least we know someone has the Britannic one stashed away somewhere. If you found it or have some leads, please let me know! :)

Regards,

Daniel.
 
Jul 7, 2002
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Hi Daniel,

Yes we are talking about the same source, it isn't actually Andrews' personal notebook, but for some reason various things acquire unusual nicknames.​

I understand... and I liked your article, btw!

Some of it may be applicable to Titanic as the ships were very similar, but the book itself is only about Olympic.​

Oh! Then what are the other two sets of numbers? I was assuming that the first set was Olympic, the second Titanic, and the third Britannic.

Am I correct in assuming that you were searching for the Britannic detailed specification book, which is mentioned in the book on pp.30 - 31? There would have been a similar book for Olympic, and a separate one for Titanic. Neither of which are known to exist -- at least not to the general public. At least we know someone has the Britannic one stashed away somewhere. If you found it or have some leads, please let me know! :)

You are correct! E&H describe the source as a detailed description of Titanic, but I know from you and other folks here it probably refers to Britannic and is part of a private collection somewhere. If I ever find it, or even any good leads, I will definitely share the info.

Why someone would keep a source like that to himself is beyond me! As Mike, Richard, and others have suggested, I don't care about having an original, I just want to see the contents. The least the owner could do is make the contents public.

Best wishes,

Cathy
 
Dec 7, 2000
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Cathy,

The numbers all apply to various changes made to Olympic. The earliest set of numbers -- or the original writing -- refers to the specifications Olympic had when she left Belfast on her maiden voyage (1911). Over the next few months some bugs were worked out and various changes made. These were altered and recorded in the book by late January 1912. Then Olympic went for a major refitting during winter of 1912/13 and more changes and alterations were made. She returned back to passenger service in March (or April?) 1913, and thus these newest alterations were also recorded in the notebook.

The reason some of the information is applicable to Titanic, is because Titanic actually had the chance to incorporate some of the changes from the very beginning, while Olympic had to wait for the 1912/13 refit. However you have to be careful not to apply all the information to Titanic. For example, the page that mentions the heaters is obviously for Olympic. Olympic didn't have individual heaters in the six 1st class cabins on the boat deck as Titanic did, and Titanic would have also likely had extra heaters in the aft 1st class staircase, because the reception room was much larger than the small B deck space on Olympic.

Regards,

Daniel.
 
S

Scott R. Andrews

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"...You can still obtain this obscenely overpriced source from H&W for L75/$125. (I found out H&W had it when I was trying to track down an elusive source used by E&H.) I don't know why they didn't turn it over to UFTM with everything else...."

Hi Cathy,

I'm curious as to when you obtained your copy. I got mine from H&W technical Services back in late 1998. At that time they were selling copies for US$75 a pop. Not long after that, I was told by somebody else that they had tried to obtain a copy and that Deborah at H&W-TS had told him that they were no longer making copies from the original notebook, as the binding and pages had become too fragile to withstand the constant handling. The book itself was supposedly given to UFTM and added to their Titanic display. Andy Roddis (another H&W-TS employee) confirmed this when I asked him about the notebook during a call not long afterwards to place an order for the general arrangement and rigging drawing for the Nomadic. Perhaps H&W is still selling copies generated from a photocopy of the original? (Of course, that's what they should have been doing all along instead of subjecting archival materials to that sort of abuse!)

For that matter, as Bob Read has suggested earlier in this thread, none of the original materials need to be handled more than once; a simple scan and electronic storage and reproduction would have been the best possible solution to the problem. Even with the large drawings, this wouldn't have been any more difficult than making the copies they were selling, and H&W-TS may have actually had the necessary equipment to do this save for a few pieces of software. The type of machine that was being used to make these copies is similar in operation to the large format engineering copiers you see in any Kinkos. The scanning portion of those machines can output data either directly to a large format printer, or to a PC where the data can be stored in a file, burned onto a CD, converted to another format, etc.

Storing the drawings in this manner also would preserve a facet of these drawings that is completely lost on the plain blackline prints; colored lines and washes were used on the large drawings as well to indicate the location of changes in fabrication processes and materials, or to identify specific changes. There are notes on the drawings that state things like "area in marked in yellow to be hydraulically riveted with steel rivets", or "changes in blue xx/xx/xx".

Regards,

Scott
 
Jul 7, 2002
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Hi Scott,

>I'm curious as to when you obtained your copy.

I received it -- and returned it! -- about this time last year (summer 2003). It's a good source, but it's not worth the L75/$125 H&W charges for it AND it's not what I wanted!

I was trying to get the specs book E&H mention on pages 30-31 of Titanic: Triumph and Tragedy, which includes 120 pages of detailed descriptions of the passenger accommodations. Thanks to the ET discussions I now realize this source probably refers to Britannic and is probably from a private collection, but at the time I was just working with the descriptions in E&H. I gave H&W a detailed description of the source, quoting E&H, but instead of telling me they didn't have it, they just sent the Andrews Notebook. I supposed my first clue that they weren't reading my e-mail very carefully should have been the fact that many of the messages to me started "Dear Sir." *SIGH.*

One of the last messages I got from H&W (dated August 2003) said UFTM now has H&W's plans and photos. Unfortunately, I haven't had any better luck with them. At least I now I know I'm not the only one having trouble finding these sources!

Best wishes,

Cathy
 

Bob Read

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I am of the opinion that H&W photos and plans of the Olympic class and other ships prior to them are no longer protected by copyright. I have never seen a copyright notation on any of these materials. If this is so, is there any impediment to copying copies which people already have and distributing them at will?
If anybody believes I am wrong can they cite chapter and verse as to why?

What I'm getting at is that I believe that these materials are public domain and, as such, copies can be made and even sold as anyone wishes. This would enable the Titanic community at large to circumvent UFTM or anyone else who is keeping these materials out of circulation. If you think I'm wrong I'd like to know why.

Regards
Bob Read
 
Dec 7, 2000
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Bob,

UFTM still charge about 100 pounds a piece to reproduce their photos. I have no idea whether this is out of habbit, or whether they rely on people not to know that the images are now in public domain -- that is providing that copyright no longer restricts the images and plans.

Daniel.
 

Bob Read

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Daniel

I did a little research on when copyrighted materials pass into the public domain. From what I can tell these are definitely in the public domain. The thing that really extends a
copyright period is if the work is by a single author such as a book. Then you are looking at
the lifetime of the author plus quite a number of years depending on when the work was produced.

These are not single author materials. They are corporate materials.
Check out this site which tells when things pass into the public domain: http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm

In a nutshell, works like these produced before 1923 are in the public domain.
Since UFTM has the original materials they can charge whatever they want to duplicate them.
However, anyone of us who has copies of plans photos can also charge whatever we want to make copies of our copies. Or we can give them away if we want. I believe that those who had plans copied for them by H&W are free to disseminate them however they wish.

Regards,
Bob Read
 
Dec 7, 2000
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Bob,

In which case, we are free to use and publish any images taken before 1923 without worrying about any copyrights? These photos were all taken by the same person, I wonder if that makes a difference. I'm selling my collection of 150 Olympic photos on ebay right now, since they were all taken before 1923 (even though the prints for me were done in 2001) the winner could use these photos as they please?

Daniel.
 

Bob Read

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Dec 9, 2000
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Daniel:

First, let me say that I'm not a copyright lawyer. However, if you went to the link I provided it seems clear that anything produced before 1923 is public domain. Your photos also would be public domain. Yes the person buying them could use them as they please. And you could sell copies of the photos you have as many times as you want. Public domain is public domain.

Regards,
Bob Read
 
Jul 7, 2002
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Hi Jim!

While you are there, if it's not too much trouble, can you get us a complete list of Titanic/Olympic stuff that is available?

Best wishes,

Cathy
 
Aug 10, 2002
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Jim:
I'd like to second what Cathy said. I'm very interested in getting Titanic plans, including any hydrostatic data available.
Regards,
Charlie Weeks
 

Jim Stein

Member
May 1, 2003
19
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131
Hi Jim
If you come across any plans for any of the following ships
Germanic yard #86 1875-1950
Britannic 1 yard #83 1874-1903
Oceanic 1 yard # 73 1871
Baltic 1 yard # 74 1871
Atlantic yard # 74 1871
Adriatic yard # 77 1872
COuld you please let me know.
I would like to build a model of one of these ships, but so far all I have is a profile of the hull and deck plan for the Baltic 1.
I need a body plan showing the hull lines.
Thanks Jim Stein
Australia
 
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