Henry Reginald Lee (F. Martin)

Every one of them made it to the Carpathia on a lifeboat. There were 712 survivors in all,no more, no less, all of whom were documented by the Carpathia. There are no other lists. As far as I know, Carpathia put none of her boats in the water however, the Californian searched for any additional survivors for a brief time before resuming her course to Boston.
 
Matthew, if you are asking are there Lifeboat Lists the answer is NO.

For Titanic's Crew there are several Lists all held by the Public Record Office. - Sign-on [you can find transcribed copies on this web-site, under: People - Other Groups - Crew Signing-on Sheets], Lost/Saved, plus a List signed by all surviving Crew for their Final Pay. There is also a Master C&D List which gives numbers to all of the Crew who signed-on. - This proves that there is no possibility that a Henry Reginald Lee was on the Titanic.

The surviving passengers are listed on what are generally referred to as the Carpathia Lists. - They are held by the National Archives in New York: http://www.archives.gov/research/index.html. - The 2nd Class pages are missing, but I understand typed copies are held in Washington DC.
 
Hi Lester and thank you I totally agree that there was no one in the name of Henry Reginald Lee on the Titanic and I wish it were that simple so I could draw a line under this faker (did I spell it correctly) but it is the introduction to the story of this swapping books which has added a twist and which I have heard from 2 sources when he supposedly signed on and I also believe that there are a small number of the surviving crew for which no details can be found. With this twist I have no evidence he was ever on the Titanic but I have no evidence he wasn't. Before 1912 little is known about him so I have decided to first find evidence that he was a merchant seaman by trawling through crew lists from ships of the time to find out in what capacity he crewed and if I can find his name on any ships at the time of the sinking, a tall order I think
but I don't want to draw a conclusion until all the evidence is in then I can delete his name from this web site
 
I may be a little late to enter the discussion on Henry Reginald Lee, but he was my great uncle, his mother - my great grandmother - was Lousia and a brother Arthur was just one of his siblings that included my grandfather Bertram. It was always accepted that Henry was a crew member on the Titanic and I remember in around 1958 when he was guest of honour at the premier of the film A Night to Remember. But my own research into my family history and that of Reginald Robinson Lee has led me to conclude that Henry was living a lie. There is no evidence whatsoever that he was ever onboard the Titanic and that is a great pity. The only link between the two families is that they were both Portsmouth (Portsea) families.
 
Regarding the status of Reginald Robinson Lee whilst he was in the Royal Navy, he was most certainly an officer in the rank of assistant paymaster. His last ship HMS Diadem was a 11,000 ton 1st class cruiser. He would have been responsible not just for pay but also for the victuals and ship's stores and he would also be a secretary to the Captain. A Paymaster was known in the RN to be an arduous job and the constant burden of the job may well have been the cause of his decline into a reliance on alcohol. But his drop in status to become a merchant seaman may well have been his saviour, being away from the heavy responsibility of his previous career. Another sad tale.
 
Very interesting, David - and not an isolated case. There was a Pitman in Germany who posed as a Titanic officer, at least one Lightoller who traded on the name, a Lowe, and a woman who explained the disappearance of her husband, a William Murdoch, to their children by telling them that he had gone down with the ship.
 
I think perhaps the link between Henry Lee and Reginald Lee is one that is overstated here, as it certainly was not the story that has been quoted in my family (Henry Lee was my Great Grandfather) - Henry never claimed to be a Lookout, he said he was part of the serving staff and only travelling one way.

Questions still remain however. Since he could not have known that the disaster was about to happen what WAS he doing during the time he was supposed to be on board ? He clearly could not have been at home, as by now someone would have burst that particular bubble, surely ? Certainly my Grandmother would not have lied on his behalf.

I am wondering if the 1911 census will provide any information ? But sadly that is not available for another 5 years.
 
>> Certainly my Grandmother would not have lied on his behalf.<<

Maybe not, but family legends have a funny way of being accepted without question. Even then, I wouldn't make the assumption that a reletive wouldn't be "creative" with the truth and knowingly so. We may not see the reason but that doesn't mean there wasn't one. And a good one at that.
 
Yes, one family member perhaps. But there were many who never questioned the "story". If indeed it was a fabrication, it was a pretty longlasting one. He managed to convince many outside of his family as well. Of course that doesn't make it true. And that is not my suggestion at all.

However I am not convinced that one (quite big) lie really deserves another set.

What piece of evidence do you have that Henry Lee ever suggested he was Reginald Robinson Lee ?

The newspaper cutting I have of the 1958 premiere says he was a cook not a lookout.

Or, as you put it, are you simply being "creative" with the truth as well ?
 
>>What piece of evidence do you have that Henry Lee ever suggested he was Reginald Robinson Lee ?<<

I never personally made any claim to that effect. David Lee above appears to be the one who knows that there may have been a claim to that effect.
 
Ah, so this is an example of "legends have a funny way of being accepted without question" ?

I suspect the Henry Lee = Reginald Lee myth stems from this site, rather than family belief or even the evidence (what little of it there is).

As above, the newspaper article from 1958 states he was a cook. This supports the family story that he was a waiter/cook working a 1 way passage to find work, with his then pregnant wife planning to join him later.

This was the accepted version until the coming of the internet and ET. I think I came across it in 1996/1997 ?

On the RR Lee page then was a picture of what looked like my Great Grandfather (I have no idea who posted it, or where it is now ? It was a rather grainy shot, with him wearing a flat cap standing on a quayside). Does anyone know ? Or can they find out ? This picture, and the similarity of the names was interesting.

However this presented some problems. Firstly, RR Lee died a long time before Henry Lee. Secondly, him being a Lookout didn't tie in with the family belief that he was just working his passage one way. It also didn't tie in with a story about the Countess of Rothes, as RR Lee was not in the same lifeboat as her.

Perhaps the "not being a lookout" was explainable by post traumatic stress. But the others were far too difficult facts to overlook. Doesn't mean it wasn't an attractive idea to believe in, as it gave answers even if it raised questions.

So it is not that appropriate of David Lee to suggest that "prior to 2004 the family thought he was Lookout Lee" - as there were doubts well before that. It simply isn't true that Gordon Lee's information in 2004 led us to change our minds, it simply confirmed what we already suspected.

We knew he couldn't be RR Lee. And he couldn't be H.Lee as he died.

The obvious and simple answer is that he wasn't on the Titanic at all. But this of course is just based on Occam's Razor, rather than the whole "He wasn't RR Lee, so wasn't on the Titanic". I hope it is obvious that HE didn't pretend to be RR Lee, it is subsequent generations that have scratched round for answers and clung to implausible answers.

However this does leave many unanswered questions for myself, Matthew and David. What was he doing at the time ? How did he arrange for the yearly car to arrive to take him to the "reunion" every year ?
 
>>Ah, so this is an example of "legends have a funny way of being accepted without question" ?<<

I didn't say that in my last post. I did say that in the context of your question in your first post.

>>I suspect the Henry Lee = Reginald Lee myth stems from this site, rather than family belief or even the evidence (what little of it there is).<<

Again, that's a question you would have to take up with David Lee as he's the one who mooted the issue. Apparently it started with a Henry Lee who had already passed away before the internet was even invented.

For the record, I checked the list of biographies on the information side of this website. The only Lee's I found in any context was the lookout at https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/biography/1348/

A trimmer at https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/biography/1556/ (He died in the sinking) and Harold H. Lee ( https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/biography/2627/ ) who was a waiter on the Carpathia.

Make of that what you will.
 
Nigel

>>>> I am wondering if the 1911 census will provide any information ? But sadly that is not available for another 5 years.<<<<

My wife, who knows about genealogy and keeps abreast of what is going on, tells me you can get a page of the 1911 census now, although the fee is £45. You have to know the address of where the person was, of course. It might be best to be patient until February 1909 when it will become generally available.
 
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