Henry Reginald Lee (F. Martin)

Good evening Nigel.
Firstly I must correct your statement that HRL being a lookout was not quoted in your family. Firstly, I have a copy of a letter sent by Robin Gardiner dated 13.02 1998 stating that a granddaughter of HRL - Patricia Thomas - had written to him correcting his book that the real name of Reginald Robinson Lee was in fact Henry Reginald Lee. She also wrote to a cousin in Australia in Nov. 2003 and to another cousin in Portsmouth -Myra Lee- and the content of both letters confirm that she believed that HRL was a lookout. So Nigel, that particular part of the legend was well entrenched in your part of the family.
Other facts that do not add up: He told his grandson Robert Pierson that he jumped from the stern of the ship as it was sinking. However, when he was interviewed at the premier of a Night To Remember, he stated that he climbed into a lifeboat "after saving several bell boys and child passengers" The Titanic only carried three bell boys (see this web site) and they all drowned. The ridiculous story that he told his grandson Roy Lee, that the fingers of the swimmers clinging onto the side of the lifeboat had to be chopped off to save the lifeboat, hardly adds to his credibility. Do lifeboats carry axes? Certainly not in my 23 years in the RN. Lastly,if he was supposedly working a one way ticket; why then did he not just stay out there?
In short Nigel, nothing about HRL adds up, but I am still leaving the door ajar in the event that something tangible might come along.
 
Earlier this year I was able to purchase a couple of pages of the 1911 census. It was indeed £45 which is a huge amount for a couple of bits of paper, but sometimes you just have to know!!! I didn't know the address but I did have a rough idea of where the people were.

<<<<uhhhhhhhhh...1909>>>>

Easily done, I spend so much time researching the past I am always putting 18XX instead of 20XX usually on really important stuff too.
 
>>>Uhhhhhhhhh...1909 Ernie? A typo maybe?<<<

No, Michael, I am assured it's going to be available early and I'm not going to argue with her indoors.
Smile


In the Times today it suggests the Government are considering doing away with the census in the future because of our mobile population - they missed out a million people last time. What will us genealogists do then?
Cry


Thanks for that Emma, glad to know someone has used what I've just recommended

I've had a google on the National Archives site and it says that they are going to phase the 1911 census in from 1909 but restrict some information. When I said it would be generally available I concede I was a bit misleading.
 
>>What will us genealogists do then?<<

They'll just have to make do I suppose. Records are still kept in various repositories of births, deaths, naturalizations, immigrations, and other vital statistics. The work may well be more difficult, but not impossible.
 
Thanks for the link, Lester and for pointing out my error. To do it twice; how daft can you get? Please don't answer that.
Blush


Apologies to Michael and Emma.
 
>>To do it twice; how daft can you get?<<

Well, if you really, really, really want to see new highs in lunacy and insanity, just watch you're elected officials in action. If you can't top that, you're in good shape...even if you do have discussions of Buddahist theology with parking meters.
Crazy
 
Hello David,

>>Firstly I must correct your statement that HRL being a lookout was not quoted in your family.<<

That wasn't my assertion, I said that prior to about 1996 (i.e. the start of ET) the general view was that he was a steward. Or a cook. The lookout idea was later one (although there is a story that he wasn't a lookout, but just happened to be up there at the time).

It wasn't until I discovered ET, and the picture, that we wondered if Henry Lee was Reginald Lee. Working in IT at the time I had access to the Internet fairly early on.

The picture posted on here looked exactly like Henry Lee's son, Reginald. So I am thinking that whomever posted it was more certain of the lookout story ? Unless it really was of THE Reginald Lee and he looks quite a lot like Reginald Lee II !

>>when he was interviewed at the premier of a Night To Remember, he stated that he climbed into a lifeboat "after saving several bell boys and child passengers" <<

Yes, and pulling the Countess of Rothes from the water.

>>Firstly, I have a copy of a letter sent by Robin Gardiner dated 13.02 1998 stating that a granddaughter of HRL - Patricia Thomas - had written to him correcting his book that the real name of Reginald Robinson Lee was in fact Henry Reginald Lee. <<

I haven't seen Patricia Thomas since my Grandfather's funeral. But I wonder if she got the information about the picture (since it was 2 years after I had printed it off) ? Or maybe it was from her ?

>>and to another cousin in Portsmouth -Myra Lee- <<

Mmm, yes, not a big fan of yours that Myra.

>>The ridiculous story that he told his grandson Roy Lee, that the fingers of the swimmers clinging onto the side of the lifeboat had to be chopped off to save the lifeboat, hardly adds to his credibility.<<

Were they cut off with an axe ? I though they froze off. Apparently they looked like Chipolata sausages and Roy was never able to eat them again.

>>if he was supposedly working a one way ticket; why then did he not just stay out there? <<

Ah, now this one I know the "answer" to. It isn't like I haven't asked all of these questions myself. Several times. Apparently his wife had a miscarriage shortly after the sinking, so he returned to be with her.

>>In short Nigel, nothing about HRL adds up, but I am still leaving the door ajar in the event that something tangible might come along.<<

Very true. But nothing is provable, and that is the frustration. It is so utterly fantastic and fanciful, and one would think in nearly 100 years, there would be one piece of evidence that would link him to somewhere else.

I have been through the crews of all the other vessels. Have been through the Ellis Island records. And now thanks to Ernie (thankyou) I think I will have a go at the 1911 census.

Of course if any of us were famous, this we be a great story for the "Who do you think you are" series that has been on BBC2.
 
Hello Nigel again.
The letter that I mentioned before, sent by Pat Thomas to Robin Gardiner attempting to correct his book, was dated 25.11.1995.

>> I said that prior to about 1996 the general view was that he was a steward or a cook. The lookout idea was a later one.<<

It was always accepted in my part of the Lee family that HRL was a lookout. My 91yr old living father was told this by his father, a brother of HRL, and my last living aunt, my father's sister, was also led to believe this and remembers visiting him in his home in Cams Hill with my grandmother. So this story could only have come from the man himself. I can tell you this Nigel, they are still not convinced that he wasn't a lookout, despite what I have told them. The story is that ingrained!
As to HRL just being in the crows nest, I am quite sure that "goofers" would not have been allowed up there and anyway why would a cook, having slaved all day in the kitchens, want to stand up there on a freezing cold night with an apparent wind speed of 20+ knots blowing over him, when he could be tucked up warm in his pit.

>> Yes, and pulling the Countess of Rothes from the water <<

What on earth was the Countess doing in the water? She had been lowered into the water, sat in lifeboat no.8 and then took charge of the tiller as the boat was rowed away. My info. is that she didn't even get her feet wet and I repeat, according to the info. on this web site, no bell boys were saved; they all perished.

>> were they cut off with an axe?<< (fingers)

Roy Lee stated "That the fingers of the clinging swimmers had to be chopped off to save the lifeboats" This would imply that an axe or similar tool was used.
This story, unreported anywhere else, is really too bizarre to be credulous and has to be the result of a very vivid imagination on the part of our Henry.

>> Apparently his wife had a miscarriage shortly after the sinking, so he returned to be with her<<

A granddaughter of HRL - Juliet Aldsworth - stated in a letter that Myra sent to me, that a baby was born and christened Mary but did not survive. However there was no birth or death registered for a Mary Lee in the area around that time. So your miscarriage theory fits better, even though Juliet's version is more definitive. But you can see just how confused the history around HRL is.

Finally, the photo that you alluded to of a man in a flat cap, must be the 12th May 1912,Daily Sketch, photo of RRL that I copied from this site some time ago.
As far as accessing the 1911 census, the ancestry uk site states that an address is required, as well as a fee, as there is no name index yet. Otherwise I would have gone down that path.
Despite all this, I am still leaving the door ajar!
 
Nigel: Another update for you should you wish to access the 1911 census. I have just obtained a copy of the birth certificate of Dorothy Lee, the second child of Mary and Henry Reginald Lee. She was born on 22nd April 1911 around the time that the census was taking place. She was born at No.5 Coronado Road in Alverstoke and still there when her birth was registered by Mary Lee on 11th June 1911. Henry's occupation was given as " Passenger steward on steamship"

If Henry was at home for the census, it might well state what ship he was serving on. But at least you now have an address to enable you to request a copy of the census, as this is crucial when applying.

Happy searching Nigel.......Dave.
 
Wow, thanks for that information, have whizzed of my £45 to the records office !

That certainly ties in with with some family member's views of him being a Steward on a ship.

I think it would be too much to hope for that there would be a ship name on the census, but will keep searching. Unless he was making his occupation up (not beyond belief) 7 days after the sinking, then there should be some records on the Maritime registry. Kew is not far from me, so may make a trip.

Thanks again.
 
Got my years mixed up, obviously !

So a year before the sinking he was a ship's steward. Interesting.
 
"Dorothy Lee, the second child" ...

Turns out Dorothy was the third child, and my grandfather, Reginald, was not the eldest as previously thought.

Mabel Olive Victoria Lee was born in March 1906. She died in September 1911.

Census give no information about HR Lee's ships, other than he was a Steward for a Private Steam Liner company.
 
He signed onto the Titanic on 6th April 1912, as “F Martin” of 13,High Street, Fareham. His age was given as 29, and previous ship the Adriatic. He survived, was paid expenses to attend the British Hearing (£6 8shillings and sixpence !) but wasn’t called to testify. And that is about as much as we seem to know about him.

We have recently obtained the Seamen’s record (CR10) from the 4th Register of Seamen for him. This gives his D.O.B as 28th June 1882 in Portsmouth, and a full name of “Frank Edward Martin”. He is rated as a Steward, and there is a photograph.

Searches for his birth records throw up nothing, and the census in 1911 doesn’t either. He was not living at 13, High Street (it was occupied by a carter called Charles Mellish and family), nor is there a similarly aged Frank Martin with any seafaring occupation in the Hampshire area around that time.

There are two Crews Agreements from the Adriatic in 1911 that show F Martin, again as a scullion. On 29th May 1911 he gives his address as 5, Colorado Street, Gosport and in 26 June 1911 5, Colorado Road, Gosport. His previous ship is given as the Teutonic, but sadly the Crew Agreements don’t seem available for the 1910/11 period for this ship.

There is no Colorado Road/Street in Gosport, but there is a 5, Coronado Road. Frank Martin is not living there on the 2nd April 1911 census records, despite signing onto the Adriatic with that address a matter of weeks later.

However, a Henry Reginald Lee was living in 5, Coronado Road, and he gives his occupation as “Ships Steward”.

Now Henry Reginald Lee does exist in the records, and his birth/death/marriage certificates give his D.O.B as 28th June 1882 in Portsmouth (the same as Frank Martin). His occupation as Steward is also restated on the birth certificate of his daughter, born in 1911.

So we have two people, with the same birthdates and place, the same occupation, and (bar the repeated spelling mistake) supposedly living in the same house in April 1911.

The simple conclusion, just based on the primary sources, is that they are one and same person.

From a more subjective position (HR Lee was my Great-Grandfather) Henry had always told his family he survived the Titanic, although there appears to some confusion as to his position; cook, steward and even lookout frequently appear. In 1958 he attended the Portsmouth premiere of “A Night To Remember” and told the local newspaper he was a cook on the Titanic. The writing on the 1911 census and the signature on the Adriatic crew register are very similar, and family photographs match with the CR10 record photo of Frank Martin.

He was also the teller of very tall tales, which have probably not helped in uncovering the facts. Although one wonders what nuggets are hidden in the embellishments and Chinese-whispers handed down the generations. Was Henry in fact the unknown seaman in LifeBoat 8, as he talked about pulling the Countess of Rothes from the sea so maybe he was in her lifeboat (not that she went in the sea, perhaps he helped he out of the lifeboat) ?

Tall tales aside, I think it is an extraordinary story, Henry has been using an alias for several years to work in passenger liners with no apparent problems, and then suddenly he finds himself in the middle of one of the biggest stories of the century and he is using an assumed name.

No wonder some of the local news reports are rather confused about the identities of the local crew. One lists Frank Martin AND a Tom Lee as living in the High Street, Fareham, although it is due to these conflicting newspaper reports (found by David Lee, many thanks!) that we found the Frank Martin details whilst looking for Tom Lee.

So, unless anyone has evidence to the contrary, then I am claiming Frank Martin as Henry Reginald Lee !

Some people have called him a “faker”, which is true; he faked his identity but clearly not his story.
 
Reply
  • Like
Reactions: Patricia Thomas
Back
Top