Herbert Stone's Disappearance and George Stewart's Obituary from Archive Newspapers.

Seumas

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(Not sure what reason there would be for photo-shopping anyway? A lot of Titanic/Olympic construction photos were doctored in various ways, but I don't think they had they technology in 1912 to implant people or transpose heads onto bodies).
Photographers of the Edwardian era would have been perfectly able to alter photographs.

An experienced, professional photographer of the time would have found it quite easy to manipulate. In fact "spirit photographers" had been conning money out of people since the 1860s by putting ghostly people (actors, assistants or paper cut outs) in full form or just their heads or hands into a photograph of someone sitting for a portrait.

For a few years after WW1, many photographers in Europe, North America and Australasia offered a service to people who had lost their lost their son, husband or brother in the war and wanted one last picture with them. The relatives would go to a photographer with a good clear photo of their relatives head. They would have their picture taken with a ringer taking the place of their relative. The photographer afterwards would cut out the ringers head and inserted that of the young man they wanted one final picture with.

My local photographer taught me all that. You need to have something to talk about when the football season's over. :D
 
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Jim Currie

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An interesting discussion to follow.

Re. the group photo:
The angle of the sun on their faces & the shadows are all consistent (slightly different on Groves, as he's tilting his head a bit), indicating this is a genuine 'un-shopped' photograph.
When heads get plonked on different bodies, facial shadows are normally the first giveaway.

(Not sure what reason there would be for photo-shopping anyway? A lot of Titanic/Olympic construction photos were doctored in various ways, but I don't think they had they technology in 1912 to implant people or transpose heads onto bodies).

They were clearly all there together at the same time, so the various discrepancies & oddities must have other explanations.
I think you should see an optician ;) Explain the wrong uniforms and rank braid.
 

Julian Atkins

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Hi Jim,

Re your following pic from your post 54, this is the link to the full pic:-


Now, looking at the above link I can understand a bit more of your previous posts:-

1. Stewart has no rings on his cuffs.

2. The date quoted of the pic of 20th May 1912 (from The Daily Mirror newspaper according to Getty) is clearly not the date the photo was taken, as it is the same pic in Leslie Harrison's 'Titanic Myth', PLUS Harrison also has the corresponding pic of the same group at the same time in the same place with the 2 girls sitting on Captain Lord and Stewart's laps and the same spyglass that links with p.38 in 'Titanic Myth'.

3. Stone has a badly fitting cap that is far too small (perhaps the cap got soaked and Stone dried it out too quickly and it shrunk. Done the same myself). Groves has his flat topped different style of cap.

4. Stone has 2 shiny lapel badges on his jacket. Captain Lord has a peculiar ball type thing to the right of his right lapel.

Cheers,

Julian
 

Jim Currie

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Hi Jim,

Re your following pic from your post 54, this is the link to the full pic:-


Now, looking at the above link I can understand a bit more of your previous posts:-

1. Stewart has no rings on his cuffs.

2. The date quoted of the pic of 20th May 1912 (from The Daily Mirror newspaper according to Getty) is clearly not the date the photo was taken, as it is the same pic in Leslie Harrison's 'Titanic Myth', PLUS Harrison also has the corresponding pic of the same group at the same time in the same place with the 2 girls sitting on Captain Lord and Stewart's laps and the same spyglass that links with p.38 in 'Titanic Myth'.

3. Stone has a badly fitting cap that is far too small (perhaps the cap got soaked and Stone dried it out too quickly and it shrunk. Done the same myself). Groves has his flat topped different style of cap.

4. Stone has 2 shiny lapel badges on his jacket. Captain Lord has a peculiar ball type thing to the right of his right lapel.

Cheers,

Julian
There was a saying when I was a lad, Julian... "Phoney as a halfpenny watch". These phoney pictures are as numerous as "splinters from the original cross". The famous one I harp-on about and ioannis is sick of me ranting on about is the one entitled "Titanic leaving Southampton". If it was as as named, why was there a man wearing a winter overcoat in the foreground when the weather at that time was unseasanally warm? And, what happened to the lookouts in the "nest" after the ship left her berth? Why weren't they still up there when the ship headed down river after clearing the White Star Dock? Why were the tugs pushing a vessel onto a berth which had a wind blowing her onto it? But I diverse... ;)
 

Julian Atkins

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I came across the following today which ties in with Harland's original thread:-

I found an excerpt about Stone from Leslie Harrison's diary "Chronology of Leslie Harrison's Involvement in Captain Lord's Case":

June 18, 1963
"From Captain G.J.Penston (ex-Harrison's): First sailed with Stone 1934 as 2/O in Dorelian, Stone C/O; known as 'Stoney' to firemen. Last report: after trip with 'bad' captain in Harrison's, went missing in London; found five days later sitting on wharf of Devon port -- childhood home. Left company. Not heard of since. Originally wanted to be a schoolteacher; not cut out for sea life".
This is apparently what Paul Lee used as his source in his book - Leslie Harrison's diary etc.

Stone was found not sitting on a wharf of a Devon port, but hanging around Portsmouth Dockyard in June 1937.

The Harrison Line survived with all it's archives intact in it's headquarters in Liverpool till some 20 years ago, not far from where Leslie Harrison worked in the MMSA, and Leslie Harrison could have checked all this easily at the time. Perhaps he did.

What is surprising to me, and quite clear, is that Leslie Harrison knew about Stone going AWOL in the 1930s, as early as 1963, but chose not to include this in his book in 1986, same as he decided not to include any of the details of Gibson's awful career after 1912.

(Note - Leslie Harrison and the Harrison Line were not connected. The Harrison Line 'Wayfarer', from which Stone disappeared after returning from India in June 1937 as Chief Officer, was one of the first casualties of WW2 via the Graf Spee. The Harrison Line was also infamous for the SS Politician with its cargo of whisky as per Compton Mackenzie's book and the Ealing film 'Whisky Galore!')

Cheers,
Julian

[Edit - "But Captain Penston was out by 3 years in what he told Harrison" deleted after Seamus's post, for which I apologise]
 
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Seumas

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I came across the following today which ties in with Harland's original thread:-



This is apparently what Paul Lee used as his source in his book - Leslie Harrison's diary etc.

But Captain Penston was out by 3 years in what he told Harrison, and Stone was found not sitting on a wharf of a Devon port, but hanging around Portsmouth Dockyard in June 1937.

The Harrison Line survived with all it's archives intact in it's headquarters in Liverpool till some 20 years ago, not far from where Leslie Harrison worked in the MMSA, and Leslie Harrison could have checked all this easily at the time. Perhaps he did.

What is surprising to me, and quite clear, is that Leslie Harrison knew about Stone going AWOL in the 1930s, as early as 1963, but chose not to include this in his book in 1986, same as he decided not to include any of the details of Gibson's awful career after 1912.

(Note - Leslie Harrison and the Harrison Line were not connected. The Harrison Line 'Wayfarer', from which Stone disappeared after returning from India in June 1937 as Chief Officer, was one of the first casualties of WW2 via the Graf Spee. The Harrison Line was also infamous for the SS Politician with its cargo of whisky as per Compton Mackenzie's book and the Ealing film 'Whisky Galore!')

Cheers,
Julian
Very interesting Julian.

The only reason I can think of for Harrison not publicising Stone's nervous breakdown and Gibson's severe lack of professionalism is that maybe he felt a responsibility not to upset Stone and Gibson's next of kin who must have still been alive when his book was first published ? Just a random thought.
 

Julian Atkins

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Just as a bit of a further aside, if Stone's son John was in his forties when Leslie Reade attempted contact in 1965, eventually getting a letter from John Stone dated 31st August 1965, John Stone would have been in his teens in June 1937 when his Dad went missing, and it is inconceivable that John Stone would not have known about all this - Harland's press cuttings support my contention. Yet he deliberately omitted this vital bit of information about his Dad when writing to Reade.

Reade's whole hypothesis about Stone is thus to my mind further undermined. It's quite odd! Reade knew nothing about Stone going AWOL and suffering from a mental breakdown in 1937, and thought Stone's career at sea ended in 1933 rather than 1937. Leslie Harrison probably knew some of the story but didn't make it public in his books.

Cheers,
Julian
 

Harland Duzen

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Off topic, but at the risk of adding more confusion to the Stanley Lord Photo debate, there is another photograph of him taken from the Liverpool Echo in 1998* that shows his cuff braid as possibly that of a chief officer or captain of a smaller ship??? Maybe Pre-Californian? It does look similar to the photograph of him while in service with the Nitrate Producers Steamship Company but the cap and coat appear to be different.

Stanley Lord Photo Liverpool Echo Februay 23 1998 Page 66 copy.png

(Above) Taken from the Liverpool Echo, February 23rd 1998, Page 66


*I found this at the same time as the Stone and Stewart articles but for some reason didn't attach it with the original thread, Sorry.
 

Julian Atkins

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Very interesting Julian.

The only reason I can think of for Harrison not publicising Stone's nervous breakdown and Gibson's severe lack of professionalism is that maybe he felt a responsibility not to upset Stone and Gibson's next of kin who must have still been alive when his book was first published ? Just a random thought.
Hi Seumas,

I don't know. It is all quite complex. If Leslie Harrison had dirt to dish out on Gibson and Stone, which I believe he had, and was using every effort to clear Captain Lord's name, one might have expected him to show that Gibson and Stone had problems later on, in the same way that Leslie Harrison attached great importance (as did Captain Lord did) to how successful a career Captain Lord had post 1912.

Or else Leslie Harrison was more of a gentleman than others suggest. Or else as Sam suggests it isn't relevant to 14/15th April 1912 what happened to them in later life and their careers etc.

But I personally think information and facts withheld or not known at the time Leslie Harrison and Leslie Reade wrote their books should be now known and considered and assessed, even if it is regarded as irrelevant to the events of April 1912 and discarded.

Cheers,
Julian
 

Jim Currie

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Hi Seumas,

I don't know. It is all quite complex. If Leslie Harrison had dirt to dish out on Gibson and Stone, which I believe he had, and was using every effort to clear Captain Lord's name, one might have expected him to show that Gibson and Stone had problems later on, in the same way that Leslie Harrison attached great importance (as did Captain Lord did) to how successful a career Captain Lord had post 1912.

Or else Leslie Harrison was more of a gentleman than others suggest. Or else as Sam suggests it isn't relevant to 14/15th April 1912 what happened to them in later life and their careers etc.

But I personally think information and facts withheld or not known at the time Leslie Harrison and Leslie Reade wrote their books should be now known and considered and assessed, even if it is regarded as irrelevant to the events of April 1912 and discarded.

Cheers,
Julian
I agree with you 100% Julian., regarding the use of newly discovered additional information.

I suggest to you and others that the present opinions for and against Captain Lord and his officers are already based of 2nd, 3rd and 4th hand evidence, mixed-in with selective and inaccurate use of hard evidence.. The same can be said for some of the conclusions reached regarding the actions of the officers of the Titanic. So where should discovery stop?

I have been accused on these pages of bias toward Lord. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I can assure you, if the same evidence was presented to a Maritime Court today, the findings of that court would be almost unrecognisable to some of the preaent-day self proclaimed "experts".
Your journey through the evidence will doubtless have shown you that Lord, with the aid of Harrison were perfectly willing to stand up in a public court and be judged by those who were properly qualified to do so. Apart from the legal niceties put forward as to why this never happened...we should all ask ourselves why such public exposure never took place.
 

Jim Currie

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Off topic, but at the risk of adding more confusion to the Stanley Lord Photo debate, there is another photograph of him taken from the Liverpool Echo in 1998* that shows his cuff braid as possibly that of a chief officer or captain of a smaller ship??? Maybe Pre-Californian? It does look similar to the photograph of him while in service with the Nitrate Producers Steamship Company but the cap and coat appear to be different.

View attachment 44954
(Above) Taken from the Liverpool Echo, February 23rd 1998, Page 66


*I found this at the same time as the Stone and Stewart articles but for some reason didn't attach it with the original thread, Sorry.
Nice find, Harland.
That is a very old photograph. Lord is wearing the cap badge of the PSNC, the Company he served with before it was taken over by Leyland Line. I suggest it was taken to celebrate his promotion to Chief officer after obtaining his Extra Master's certificate so the date is probably about 1902. He is also wearing the high collar favoured by senior officers at that time. Note the narrow bands in your photograph... these were the PSNC braid.

He was promoted about 4 years later to master of the Leyland Line. Their junior masters wore three broad bands RN style with a loop.
 
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I am not too sure your second pic in your post 57 of Captain Lord is after he left Leyland Line and after he joined Lawther Latta. That high stiff collar without 'wings' (ie a wing collar) is quite unusual, and seems to be something Captain Lord adopted as part of his own 'dress' ie his choice of shirt and collar whilst a Captain in the Leyland Line. He also seems to have been fond of a bow tie for himself whilst a Captain of the Leyland Line. I find this interesting. A high stiff collar without 'wings' was quite uncomfortable to wear, and rather old fashioned by 1912. It was not something Rostron or Smith wore in 1912.
If it helps, look up "A Ship Accused" by Molony. The full photo (collection Edward P. De Groot) is there stating Captain Lord aboard Leyland Liner Devonian 1908.
 
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Julian Atkins

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Hi Ioannis,

Many thanks for your reply and further information. All we need is a National Archive reference for Captain Lord being in command of the Devonian! (Or one of Harland's newspaper cuttings!)

The National Archive cataloging is a minefield - at least I have great difficulty with it! The records for Captain Lord's commands are there somewhere, plus the crew lists and agreements for The Californian, and the official ships log (as opposed to the ships log if that makes sense), as others have seen them and quoted from them before it went online and got re-cataloged. I have a few leads kindly supplied, but rather like Captain Lord before 6am on the 15th would rather not go on "a wild goose chase" at Kew, which is a long drive from South Wales to London for research that might well be inconclusive without all the proper references.

Cheers,

Julian
 
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Harland Duzen

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Off topic to the above, but quickly searching "Devonian" and "1908" on the British Newspaper Archive's search page shows that the Devonian had visited Boston either in or before July 1908 when a fire took place at the docks (multiple reports mention cargo delivered by the Devonian being damaged in the blaze).

Now while unknown, IF Lord was then the captain / commander of her by that point then it means he had at least
visited or seen Boston once before he did aboard the Californian.

Back to Topic!
 

Julian Atkins

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I have my doubts over Edward P De Grout's research. There is no mention of the Devonian in 'Titanic Myth' or in Stanley Lord Tutton's account of his late father's career in 'Titanic Myth Part 2 Defending Captain Lord', but I don't dismiss the proposition that Captain Lord did command the Devonian as in both the above there is a jump or gap for this period.

The quotes by Reade of the Boston newspapers on 19th April 1912 are that it was the first time of The Californian to Boston, and the first time Captain Lord had visited Boston (p.151 Reade first paragraph, and footnotes 1 and 2, chapter 11; Reade is very accurate and precise about his Boston Newspaper quotes, even showing a pic of the most damning newspaper report).

Cheers,

Julian
 
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The second picture of Lord back in post #57 was also in Molony's book Titanic and the Mystery Ship. Caption states that it is from 1908 aboard the Leyland Liner Louisianian. Credited to the estate of Stanley Tutton Lord.
 
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Seumas

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With Stanley Tutton Lord having died childless and never having married, do we know who the private papers and photographs etc he held of his father were bequeathed to ?
 

Harland Duzen

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Lord's vrious papers and other things (I think all of them?) were donated by his son Stanley Tutton Lord, to the Liverpool Maritime Museum's Archives. Most were donated to them in batches while he was alive but following his death in 1994, Barclays Bank donated the rest from his home to the museum.
 
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Julian Atkins

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The second picture of Lord back in post #57 was also in Molony's book Titanic and the Mystery Ship. Caption states that it is from 1908 aboard the Leyland Liner Louisianian. Credited to the estate of Stanley Tutton Lord.
Hi Sam,

Many thanks for that, and makes perfect sense, as according to Harrison, Captain Lord transferred from the Antillian to the Louisianian in July 1906, and then to the 'William Cliff' in November 1909. If Captain Japha's career is anything to go by, the Leyland Line did not change the Captains of its' ships unless there was a good reason.

As for the Devonian,

The Leyland Line ran a regular weekly service from London to Boston, but had not previously used The Californian for this 'run' till April 1912. The Devonian and a few other Leyland Line ships regularly appear on Leyland Line publicity for the London to Boston 'run'.
Cheers,

Julian
 
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Hi Harland,

Very many thanks for posting the above and starting this thread.

The Stone and Stewart press reports are very important as they correct a number of incorrect details in Reade's 'The Ship That Stood Still' and Paul Lee's book 'The Titanic and the Indifferent Stranger'.

Let's deal with Stewart first. His name is on the Merchant Navy Memorial at Tower Hill, London. The whole Barnhill bombing story is remembered on Hastings beach, and the ship's boilers can be seen at low tide. Captain Michael O'Neil was only rescued because he pulled the ships bell's rope with his teeth to sound the bell, and the Eastbourne lifeboat rescued the survivors from the fiercely burning ship.

Reade stated Stewart was unemployed so got a job as third officer on the Barnhill. This was quite untrue. Stewart had a very comfortable home in a very nice part of Sale, Cheshire, that is now a suburb of Manchester. Barwell Road is a very affluent part of Sale. He was retired. He volunteered to serve on his friend's ship to help out with the war effort.

That he should have been killed in such tragic circumstances below decks, is a twist of fate.

That Stewart should have come out of retirement at the age of 62 to help an old friend, and help out with the war effort in WW2 speaks to me volumes of the character of Stewart and a form of patriotism that in the UK some of us can relate to, and honour his subsequent sacrifice in the most awful of circumstances early on in WW2.

As for Stone, Reade states Stone left the sea in 1933! How wrong he was! Clearly Stones' family did not provide Reade with the 'scoop' he thought he had when concluding his book. One must then question the accuracy of everything else Stone's son told Reade or stated in a letter.

Paul Lee contacted the family apparently, and at least was told about the 1937 disappearance - though was told Herbert Stone was found at a Devonshire dockyard. As the Press Reports make clear, he was found at Portsmouth in Hampshire! It also clearly resulted in a national appeal in the newspapers for this 'missing person'.

The 'Wayfarer' had returned from a voyage to Calcutta, India. I am not aware of some illness that one might catch in Calcutta that would cause someone to have a memory loss for 9 days on getting back to Tilbury, London. Note that the 'Wayfarer' then steamed from Tilbury to Liverpool, Stone having by then gone AWOL. Stone's home was in Liverpool. Why, if he was physically ill, he should disappear in London and end up in Portsmouth 8 days later hanging around the docks and a day later being questioned by the police still hanging around the docks in Portsmouth, is quite fascinating!

Clearly Stone was hanging around one of the Royal Navy dock gates in Portsmouth, which aroused the suspicion of the local constabulary.

So, Stone's son John, completely misled Leslie Reade, and the whole basis of Reade's conclusions must now be re-visited or simply thrown aside. (I had already posted on here on another thread that I never accepted Reade's pseudo 'father son' relationship between Captain Lord and Stone)

Although Paul Lee was told about some of the disappearance of Stone via Stone's grandson, he failed to join the dots together in respect of Reade's book.

Cheers,

Julian
Interesting. Thanks. Is there a possibility that Stone went on a bender from hell and blacked out? The reason I bring that up is that I had a foreman once who would do that. He would get toasted and black out. We would get a call a week later from Seattle or some place and he needed money to get back. He wouldn't remember anything at all. How he never got fired was a mystery to us as the company had a strict no call no show policy. Joke was he had naked pictures of somebody. I haven't read that it was the case anywhere buy it is a strange story. Cheers (no pun intended)
P.S. Good find on the articles Harland!