How did the servants lived in 2nd class went to the 1st class?

[Zhang Beichen]

Some 1st class passengers' servants were allocated in the 2nd class cabins, such as Mr Charles Augustus Aldworth, Ms Amelia Mary "Mildred" Brown. I wonder how could they across the boundery between 1st & 2nd class. Was there any certificate or Identity "Pass"?

 

[Arun Vajpey]

My impression is that servants of 1st Class passengers whose services were required during the voyage - maids, valets etc - occupied adjoining smaller cabins in the First Class section. But those whose services were not required whilst on board were berthed in 2nd or maybe even 3rd class.

An example would be the Allison family. Alice Cleaver (nursemaid to baby Trevor Allison) and Sarah Daniels (maid to Bess Allison) were in the First Class section close to their employers; the two women very likely shared a cabin. But the cook Mildred Brown and chauffeur George Swane, whose services would not have been required doing the voyage, were berthed in 2nd Class.

I don't think there was any ID Pass but if for some reason a First Class passenger required to see his/her servant berthed elsewhere, I expect the former could inform the Assisstant Purser and arrange a bellboy or someone to fetch the person.

 

[Richard C Elliott]

I think you have explained the situation with servants very well @Arun Vajpey but there were other groups of first and second class passengers who might have either needed or wanted to have access to each other.

For example of the Harland and Wolff guarantee group 4 travelled in first class and 5 in second, in accordance with their rank in the company, but these people would surely have needed to be able to meet up fairly easily. That must have been possible, though I admit they are a rather special case.

Also in both Babler's Guide to the Crew of the Titanic and Beveridge's Titanic, the Ship Magnificent it is suggested that there were groups of second and first class passengers who, though divided by financial means, may have been of similar social status and possibly even personal friends. Thinking about this from a rural English perspective of the time, for example, one can imagine that the local doctor and vicar probably moved in much the same social circles as the squire or other 'lord of the manor' yet would have travelled in different classes. If they found themselves on the same ship they might well want to socialise with each other and it wouldn't be in WSL's interest to prevent this, though without compromising the exclusivity of some of the first class facilities.

Both of those authors suggest that first and second class may have been permitted to meet up fairly freely in the open areas and some of the less formal indoor areas of the ship, and perhaps it was even possible for first class to entertain their second class friends in some of the 'paid' facilities such as the a la carte restaurant. It seems reasonable, but I don't know whether there is any hard evidence to support this.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I think there were other groups of first and second class passengers who might have either needed or wanted to have access to each other. For example of the Harland and Wolff guarantee group 4 travelled in first class and 5 in second, in accordance with their rank in the company, but these people would surely have needed to be able to meet up fairly easily. That must have been possible, though I admit they are a rather special case.

I agree. Members of the H & W "Guarantee Group" probably did have some sort of ID cards so that they could freely move between classes as necessary. Even though individual members were accommodated in either 1st or 2nd Class, it is quite possible that one or more of them needed to pop into 3rd Class spaces during a voyage.

Perhaps it was even possible for first class to entertain their second class friends in some of the 'paid' facilities such as the a la carte restaurant.

That I am not sure. Of course, a First Class passenger could probably visit any public area of the ship that he/she wanted to but whether they would have been allowed to bring their friends from 2nd Class to the public areas of 1st Class is something that needs clarification. I personally think it would not have been allowed, except perhaps with permission from the Chief Purser.

 

[Richard C Elliott]

That I am not sure.

I'm not convinced either about that example. The a la carte was suggested in The Ship Magnificent but the context was that, having agreed that there must have been some mixing allowed, he goes on to consider whether there was anywhere the classes could have eaten together. He rules out the main dining saloons because of the difficulty with booking and meal planning arrangements and so is left with the a la carte restaurant as a remaining possibility.

It may have been less of a problem from a logistical point of view and perhaps the restaurant would have been willing to do it but I think White Star would have regarded the restaurant, even though it was a paid extra, as very definitely one of the first class 'perks'.

I have a suspicion that shared class meals would not have extended beyond, perhaps, tea and cakes in the Verandah Cafe.

 

[Thomas Krom]

Some 1st class passengers' servants were allocated in the 2nd class cabins, such as Mr Charles Augustus Aldworth, Ms Amelia Mary "Mildred" Brown. I wonder how could they across the boundery between 1st & 2nd class. Was there any certificate or Identity "Pass"?

There was a reason as to why a handful of servants, from the top of my head these five, were in second class while their employer was in first class.

Augustus Henry Aldworth (1877-1912), René Pernot (1872-1912) and George Swane (1892-1912) were the chauffeurs of the Carter family, Mr. Guggenheim and the Allison family. Amelia Mary Brown (1893-1976) was the cook of the family. You also had Edwin Charles Wheeler (1886-1912) who was the valet George Washington Vanderbilt, he was send to accompany the luggage of his employer.

The reason why the first four were booked in second class was because their services were needed ashore, not on the ship itself. Hence why they likely remained in second class.

 

[Zhang Beichen]

And there were 8 clergymen allocated in 2nd cl. I suppose they have the "privilege" to access to any class?

 

[Seumas]

And there were 8 clergymen allocated in 2nd cl. I suppose they have the "privilege" to access to any class?

No, being a clergyman did not automatically give one that privilege.

However, it was arranged for the Catholic passengers in second and third class (who so wished) to celebrate Sunday mass properly. Either Chief Purser McElroy (who was a devout Roman Catholic) or Asst. Purser Barker would have allowed second class passengers Father Byles and Father Perushitz to visit third class for a few hours, or alternatively, perhaps the two kindly priests approached the pursers with the idea.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Also in both Babler's Guide to the Crew of the Titanic and Beveridge's Titanic, the Ship Magnificent it is suggested that there were groups of second and first class passengers who, though divided by financial means, may have been of similar social status and possibly even personal friends. Thinking about this from a rural English perspective of the time, for example, one can imagine that the local doctor and vicar probably moved in much the same social circles as the squire or other 'lord of the manor' yet would have travelled in different classes. If they found themselves on the same ship they might well want to socialise with each other and it wouldn't be in WSL's interest to prevent this, though without compromising the exclusivity of some of the first class facilities.

Yes, it would have been a slightly awkward situation as far as WSL and other lines of the day were concerned but I tend to take a long-term practical view on this. IMO, the "exclusivity" of the amenities provided for the First Class passengers would have been important to those who had paid for such luxuries. Therefore, I expect there would have been a certain degree of 'discomfort' among other first class passengers if they noticed that some of their fellow-travellers were bringing-in their 2nd class friends into restaurants and similar public areas. That would not have applied to special passengers like the H & W Guarantee Group of course or to a rare brief visit by an employee to interact with his/her employer. But if the pursers had become too lax with that arrangement, some first class passengers might well have misused the 'loophole' and brought their 2nd class 'firends' into first class spaces rather too frequently. There is always the question of how often an "interloper" from 2nd Class could be brought into First and how long he or she could remain; human nature being what it is, if the practice was allowed to flourish, the aforementioned 'discomfort' among other 1st Class passengers would have quickly progressed to resentment, something that WSL and other lines would not have wanted, particularly in those class-conscious days.

 

[Zhang Beichen]

No, being a clergyman did not automatically give one that privilege.

However, it was arranged for the Catholic passengers in second and third class (who so wished) to celebrate Sunday mass properly. Either Chief Purser McElroy (who was a devout Roman Catholic) or Asst. Purser Barker would have allowed second class passengers Father Byles and Father Perushitz to visit third class for a few hours, or alternatively, perhaps the two kindly priests approached the pursers with the idea.

I see, thanks.

 

[Richard C Elliott]

Therefore, I expect there would have been a certain degree of 'discomfort' among other first class passengers if they noticed that some of their fellow-travellers were bringing-in their 2nd class friends into restaurants and similar public areas.

True, and there might also be some discomfort for the first class passengers who had invited them and for the second class invitees who might have sensed a certain resentment from other, less privileged second class fellow-passengers. Despite the overlap in social status I think that in the more class-conscious society of the time, where people 'knew their place', there might have been some discomfort all round and less tendency to abuse the system.

But if the pursers had become too lax with that arrangement, some first class passengers might well have misused the 'loophole'

Perhaps they didn't have to make a big effort to 'police' any concessions that were made.

 

[Zhang Beichen]

No, being a clergyman did not automatically give one that privilege.

However, it was arranged for the Catholic passengers in second and third class (who so wished) to celebrate Sunday mass properly. Either Chief Purser McElroy (who was a devout Roman Catholic) or Asst. Purser Barker would have allowed second class passengers Father Byles and Father Perushitz to visit third class for a few hours, or alternatively, perhaps the two kindly priests approached the pursers with the idea.

I have another question about those clergymen.

Apparently, all the 8 clergymen were not employed or hired by WSL, on the contrary, they bought their own ticket as second class passenger. So were they were invited to holding the religious service, or something else?

 

[Seumas]

I have another question about those clergymen.

Apparently, all the 8 clergymen were not employed or hired by WSL, on the contrary, they bought their own ticket as second class passenger. So were they were invited to holding the religious service, or something else?

No, they weren't chaplains like they have in the army or navy, just ordinary passengers going to North America for various reasons of their own.

For example, the Roman Catholic Father Byles was travelling to officiate his brother's wedding, Father Peruschitz was going to take charge of a Catholic high school in Minenesota, whilst the Baptist minister John Harper was going to Chicago to take charge of a mission there.

 

[Zhang Beichen]

No, they weren't chaplains like they have in the army or navy, just ordinary passengers going to North America for various reasons of their own.

For example, the Roman Catholic Father Byles was travelling to officiate his brother's wedding, Father Peruschitz was going to take charge of a Catholic high school in Minenesota, whilst the Baptist minister John Harper was going to Chicago to take charge of a mission there.

Yes, I know. But Were their any invitation, asking to provide the religious service during the voyage, or on Sunday? And who held the service in each class's dining saloon? I suppose they were invited to held that.

 

[Seumas]

Yes, I know. But Were their any invitation, asking to provide the religious service during the voyage, or on Sunday? And who held the service in each class's dining saloon? I suppose they were invited to held that.

There was an Anglican service in first class. It's often been assumed that Captain Smith must have led it, as was traditional.

Rev. Ernest Carter held a well attended Anglican service in second class which he concluded with a word of thanks for Asst. Purser Barker who helped organise it. Whether it was Carter or Barker's idea first is unknown.

Also in second class, the Methodist Rev. Robert Batemen held a small prayer meeting (rather than a service) for evangelicals.

And of course, Father Byles and Father Peruschitz said Mass in second and third class.

Whether Pursers McElroy or Barker asked Carter, Batemen, Byles and Peruschitz to attend to the ships practising Christians or whether each clergyman approached them for permission to hold a service is unknown. Sadly, McElroy, Barker and all the clergymen mentioned died in the sinking and never got to tell their story.