How did the superstructure flood in the last 20 minutes?

[Mike1]

Is there a possibility to estimate how the inner waterline was in the last 20 minutes? I guess that at 2 AM when the forecastle submerged the grand staircase was flooding from D-deck to C-deck. But how did it keep track in the next 15 minutes until the dome imploded? Was water maybe still rushing down the staircase and fill the lower levels, which means that when the dome collapsed it was still around C-deck? Or did it keep track like it is shown in the 97' movie and the dome collapses when water is between A-deck and Boatdeck level? If so, from where did all the water come from to fill the staircase in such a short time?

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

The staircase was already flooded when the dome "imploded". The water level inside was already up to the dome. The dome was under the weather cover which had to broke first before water could implode the dome. Nothing like in the movie and not so specular as some believe. The water would burst though windows or (open) doors flooding A & B Deck.

 

[Mike1]

Really? Could the flooding through windows of A- and B- deck keep track with the rapid sinking during the final plunge?

Look at video time-mark 2:37:02 it is 2:12 am and the Grand staircase on C-deck is still above water. It submerges in the next 3 minutes.

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

I have no much interest what the videos show.

 

[Thomas C.]

Could the flooding through windows of A- and B- deck keep track with the rapid sinking during the final plunge?

Water inside the ship is always at the same level with the exterior waterline. Till the final plunge at 2 15 exterior and interior waterline were at the same level. After plunge, water began enterning the ship more rapidly but 2 waterlines were still near the same level. When bow broke off water filled forward section. With no air in, bow sank.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Is there a possibility to estimate how the inner waterline was in the last 20 minutes? I guess that at 2 AM when the forecastle submerged the grand staircase was flooding from D-deck to C-deck. But how did it keep track in the next 15 minutes until the dome imploded? Was water maybe still rushing down the staircase and fill the lower levels, which means that when the dome collapsed it was still around C-deck? Or did it keep track like it is shown in the 97' movie and the dome collapses when water is between A-deck and Boatdeck level? If so, from where did all the water come from to fill the staircase in such a short time?

I believe the water inside the ship did not correspond with the waterline outside because survivor Helen Candee said - "When we reached the water I could see two lines of portholes under water, brightly lighted.....Not until I saw the two lines of lighted portholes under the water had I the slightest idea of the truth."

The ship was already heavily weighed down by her boilers and engines which were below the waterline and kept the ship evenly buoyant. When the water entered the forward compartments the weight of water would settle her down further and drag several decks below the waterline before they had a chance to flood including the decks witnessed by Helen Candee, especially as she listed over to port and dipped that side below the waterline.

I suspect the ship actually rolled over to port as she became top heavy and continued to roll over instead of settling down to port. There are numerous survivor accounts which describe the ship reeling and rolling from side to side with desperate attempts from the crew to keep the ship upright for as long as possible which suggests their efforts above the surface were affecting the position of the ship as she became more top heavy. Mrs. Ryerson saw many open windows on C-deck and observed the water rushing into the rooms on the port side. This would weigh down the port side on C-deck while the rooms directly below on D and E deck were still dry (as observed by Mrs. Candee) and this would make the ship much more top heavy and roll her even more to port.

Miss Glynn said - "We watched the Titanic rolling and bobbing like a cork. All her lights were burning, and over the water we caught the strains of 'Nearer, My God, to Thee.’ Finally Titanic ceased rolling, seemed to hesitate a moment, and plunged her bow into the ocean."

2nd officer Lightoller described the ship rocking from side to side and rapidly going down. He was then sucked against a grating as the water rushed down a shaft leading to the forward boiler rooms and blown to the surface by a terrific blast of escaping air from deep inside the bow which was so powerful that it bent the grating outwards.

Charles Joughin was down on E-deck after 1.30am and he noticed the large Scotland road corridor was practically dry, despite being well below the waterline at that very late stage of the sinking.


I believe the observance of the dry illuminated decks below the waterline, coupled with the violent rocking and rolling of the ship from side to side, and the efforts of the crew to keep the ship evenly steady on the boat deck, and the enormous volume of water that rushed down the forward shafts which burst so much air outwards, are all indications that the bow contained a great deal of unflooded space inside when she broke and her bow took a sudden lurch as it partially detached and became unsteady on the surface, rolling from side to side as it increasingly became top heavy, before flooding completely and going down.

Regarding the breaking of the Grand staircase dome. William Mellors was on the forward boat deck. He said - "We were trying to fix up a collapsible boat when she gave the first signs of going under. There seemed to be a tremble run through the whole of the ship and the next thing we heard were loud reports inside which I think were the watertight doors giving way and before you could say Jack Robinson there seemed to be mountains of water rushing through the doors." This could either indicate that water was rushing violently into the ship, through the doors and down the unflooded staircase, or the water was rising rapidly up the staircase and lifting the whole thing upwards which caused a large volume of water and debris to burst out of the doors. I have been told that the film set had actually lifted up and if the water had rushed in violently it may have broken the staircase from its seating and propelled the whole thing up. Once the sea inside and outside had equalised the wreckage of the staircase would sink back down inside the ship, or smashed through the dome and float to the surface as the ship went down.


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[Mike1]

I have no much interest what the videos show.

Well, the video just visualizes what is known from the survivor accounts. So with a 9 degree trim to the bow at 2:12 AM and the bridge touching the water, C-deck is above surface at the Grand staircase. With the strong list to port even D-deck is not completely submerged near the GSC. This means all 4 decks from C to boat deck flood in 3 minutes. If the inner water line kept track during that time, from where did the water come? Open portholes on C-deck? What was with the windows on B- and A-deck, do they account for increased flooding? They become submerged at 2:05 after B-deck sinks and A-deck at 2:10, shortly after Collapsiple D departed.
While the inner water line was equal to the outer at the point of near equilibrium before the flooding accelerated again, shouldn't it always lack behind the outer water line after that?

 

[Itsstillthinking]

You can see here even if the water line was the same as the exterior of the ship (which it was not) D deck Reception Room was still not fully flooded by 2:00 AM

 

[Mike1]

In that video and similar to the Honor and Glory video the forward well deck is already flooding at 1:30 and the forecastle is totally submerged at 2 AM. However, Phillips mentions water in the well-deck at 1:45 and when collapsible C is launched at 2 AM, the forecastle is not yet submerged.

 

[Itsstillthinking]

The Forecastle in this animation does not fully submerge until around 2:00 AM, its inaccurate in the final plunge section in which the matter in how the ship sinks

 

[Kyle Naber]

The Real Time Sinking animation from Titanic H&G team is known to be inaccurate, even from the producers of the video. It was a rushed effort that was pushed out in one week for an April 14th podcast release. It was initially going to be taken down, but the popularity that it attracted prevented it from being discarded. They're aware of things like flooding rates, the breakup, and the final plunge, etc. The sinking is becoming more gradual in the beginning with their new animation (which will be kept only for the game they claim), the breakup is more gentle, and the plunge is much less dramatic. You can see a video dedicated to their dedication for accuracy for the sinking:

 

[Aaron_2016]

One of the difficulties is that we don't know how much the Titanic had rolled over (instead of settling down). Several decks could have rolled under the waterline while remaining dry as long as the windows were closed. Helen Candee saw at least two lines of portholes shining brightly underneath the waterline. They probably showed up as a ghostly greenish colour under the water. e.g.

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[Kyle Naber]

Roughly ten degrees to port.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Titanic H & G is very much an on going work in progress. What you see now will be improved on.

 

[Rob Lawes]

A heavy list to port would make the water level higher on the port side. Therefore, with the external waterline level with C deck and a list to port, E deck on the forward end of the port side would almost certainly appear flooded.

 

[Aaron_2016]

I believe when the ship had rolled over to port that the water would rush into the open windows on B-deck and C-deck along most of her broadside. This would make her incredibly top heavy - like having an enormous ballast tank several decks above the initial flooding. When the starboard side windows were pulled under it would create two enormous volumes of water rapidly filling inside each cabin on both sides. I believe this would create two enormous weights on both sides of B-deck and C-deck and made it rapidly top heavy. e.g.

This possibly could be the reason why the ship appeared to roll from side to side as she became increasingly top heavy and the officers tried to keep her steady by ordering all the passengers and crew to one side and then the other. Jack Thayer said everyone eventually kept in the middle and tried to keep away from the sides. Mr. Barkworth said - "Somebody shouted: 'Go gently!' as if a sudden shift of weight would have disturbed the ship's position."

Lightoller - "When the order was given to the passengers to go to the starboard side I am under the impression that a great many went over and the ship got a righting movement and maintained it."

Q - You mean to say the shifting of the passengers on the deck would affect the list?
A - Yes, my Lord. At that height, and with that number of passengers, I think it would. Mr. Wilding would be able to decide that.


Reminds me of this scene from Pirates of the Caribbean.

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[Jaime Han]

Titanic H & G is very much an on going work in progress. What you see now will be improved on.

Hi Mr. Standart,

I'm a student of the United States and I am new to this website. I couldn't find a way to message you directly. So I found some of your posts on a forum from 2005 regarding the Wilhelm Gustloff and was wondering if you might have some primary resources about the topic. I am doing a research project about it for National History Day and you seemed knowledgeable about it. Thank you very much!

 

[Michael H. Standart]

I do have a Facebook presence but with that established, I don't have any primary source material at my beck and call. What knowledge I have is a benefit gained from the work of some very talented researchers who went to the records vaults and repositories to find the records.

 

[Jaime Han]

Okay, thank you for your time.

 

[coal eater]

when did third class cabins flood and lower? did port holes pop open when unflooded decks were deep under water