How Far Apart were Titanic and Californian?


Cam Houseman

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Jim, before making this point you should explain why Beesley who, according to your estimate was much closer, described the rockets almost in the same words as Gibson did:

About 3.30 A.m., as nearly as I can judge, some one in the bow called our attention to a faint far-away gleam in the southeast.
We all turned quickly to look and there it was certainly: streaming up from behind the horizon like a distant flash of a warship's searchlight; then a faint boom like guns afar off, and the light died away again..
So..Gibson took Beesely's Claim to make himself look good?
 

Mila

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And where did you take this brilliant idea about Marengo from?
You used practically the same language Maltin used in his self-published book:

Further evidence of abnormal refraction in the area comes from the log of the Wilson Line steamer
Marengo, bound from New York to Hull under the command of Captain G. W. Owen. On the night
of the collision and sinking of the Titanic on the 14/15th April 1912 she was in the same longitude as
the Titanic and only one degree south, and her log records both the clear, starlit night and the great
refraction on the horizon.


Should not you have at least acknowledged that you used Maltin's research in almost the same words, Sam? Or maybe you would like to be given the credit for that false "info" because as was shown here

and in another threads Marengo was not "in the same longitude but one degree south". How this Marengo thing ended up in your book, Sam, in the first place?
Sam, I am still waiting for your explanation on how come you used Maltin‘s research without giving him any credit, misquoted Dr. Young and said that Marengo was at the same longitude the Titanic was at the time of the sinking, while she was hundreds of miles away.
 

Cam Houseman

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Sam, I am still waiting for your explanation on how come you used Maltin‘s research without giving him any credit, misquoted Dr. Young and said that Marengo was at the same longitude the Titanic was at the time of the sinking, while she was hundreds of miles away.
To defend Sam, would you reply, if you were in that situation?
Not that I'm mad or anything.
Anyway, thanks for the answer Mila :)
 

Jim Currie

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So..Gibson took Beesely's Claim to make himself look good?

Jim, then explain what other vessel but Carpathia could have had lots of light at 4 a.m. and also please explain why Stone saw Carpathia rockets southward from Californian 40 minutes earlier. According to your image it was an impossibility.
BTW, Jim, why do you say that your sketch is based on the evidence submitted by US Hydrographic Office? Here's the chart they submitted
View attachment 50054

If the Californian and the Titanic were drifting in different currents as they probably were and there were some eddies in the ice field edges as there probably were there is nothing impossible in Carpathia being southward from Californian. Just try to think outside of the box!

It clearly shows that the Titanic and later Carpathia could have been southwards from the Californian.
That chart is as "bent" as its authors. Mila. But just for you 'cause you like them, here's another wee sketch which might help you to understand the evidence better,
Separation 1.jpg
 
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Mila

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That chart is as "bent" as its authors. Mila. But just for you 'cause you like them, here's another wee sketch which might help you to understand the evidence better,
View attachment 50070
Jim, in this article A possible role of space weather in the Titanic disaster I explained how an elevated inversion could have prevented Stone from observing rockets exploding high in the sky. The same situation. could have occurred with Carpathia’s rockets. Clearly neither Stone Californian or Beesley from the lifeboat saw a rocket exploding. They only saw some parts of it below the inversion.
Now, let assume you are right and Californian was located 20+ miles away from the Titanic. Then how she got to the wreck site in only 2 hours while crossing the pack two times and making a short stop to look for the wreckage at the SOS position?
 

Cam Houseman

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Jim, in this article A possible role of space weather in the Titanic disaster I explained how an elevated inversion could have prevented Stone from observing rockets exploding high in the sky. The same situation. could have occurred with Carpathia’s rockets. Clearly neither Stone Californian or Beesley from the lifeboat saw a rocket exploding. They only saw some parts of it below the inversion.
Now, let assume you are right and Californian was located 20+ miles away from the Titanic. Then how she got to the wreck site in only 2 hours while crossing the pack two times and making a short stop to look for the wreckage at the SOS position?
But Weren't the Californian's Engines on standby, so it'd take even longer for them to get up to Full Ahead? And, the Californian was, on average, a 12 knot ship. So, even slower than the Carpathia, who could make 17 knots, proven by her speed to Titanic's distress.

Perhaps the Californian began to make way close/around 4am, when the Carpathia's Rockets were reported.

Could be wrong, but I believe the Carpathia didn't leave the site until 10-11, I think. 5-6 hours would be enough, right.

Sorry if I misunderstood the question.
 

Jim Currie

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Jim, in this article A possible role of space weather in the Titanic disaster I explained how an elevated inversion could have prevented Stone from observing rockets exploding high in the sky. The same situation. could have occurred with Carpathia’s rockets. Clearly neither Stone Californian or Beesley from the lifeboat saw a rocket exploding. They only saw some parts of it below the inversion.
Now, let assume you are right and Californian was located 20+ miles away from the Titanic. Then how she got to the wreck site in only 2 hours while crossing the pack two times and making a short stop to look for the wreckage at the SOS position?
She didn't get to the wreck site in 2 hours, Mila, It took her 2.5 hours. She sarted off and ran full ahead at about 5-15 then stopped to check the CQD position. At about 6 am...she started off on her rescue mission. She cleared the western side of the barrier at about 6-30 am when about 15 miles northward of the CQD position - headed southward and passed betwen Mount Temple and the west side of the barrier an hour later at about 7-30 a,... At about 7-45 am she had Carpathia abeam to port and shortly after that, she turned ENE toward her. The, Carpathia was about 6 miles away. She arrived beside Carpathia about 8-30 am , Her sped in clear water as about 13 knots.
 
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Mila

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She sarted off and ran full ahead at about 5-15 then stopped to check the CQD position
She did not run full ahead at 5:15. She was stopped until 6

6710. Where had you been heading before?
- S. 89, W. true.

6711. You turned to E.N.E. by the compass?
- Yes, by the compass.

6712. Did you then stop?
- We stopped.

6713. Till?
- 6 o'clock next morning. 5.15 we moved the engines for a few minutes and then we stopped on account of the news we received, and waited till 6 o'clock.
At about 6 am...she started off on her rescue mission
You mean her recovery mission.
The, Carpathia was about 6 miles away. She arrived beside Carpathia about 8-30 am ,

It is not what Groves said:

8352. What time did you reach the "Carpathia"?
- I think it would be about 7.45.

And here is more from Groves

8320. This was about half-past six, I suppose?
- Well, about half-past six; I said 6.40 when I was first called.

8321. Now it is getting on for 7?
- I suppose by the time I got on the bridge it would be 6.50; but you understand the time is only approximate.

8322. I quite understand that. Were there any other vessels in sight?
- Yes.

8323. What were they?
- There was a four-masted steamer abeam on our port side.

8324. What steamer was that?
- I did not know at the time, but I knew afterwards she was the "Carpathia."

8325. Abeam on your port side?
- Abeam on our port side.

8326. In what direction were you going?
- That I could not say.

8327. You did not notice?
- No.

8328. How far off was she?
- I should think she would be about 5 miles - possibly more, possibly less, but about five.
 
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Jim Currie

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Read all the evidence, Mila.

"6713 - 6 o'clock next morning. 5.15 we moved the engines for a few minutes and then we stopped on account of the news we received, and waited till 6 o'clock."

The first message received by Californian at about 3-50 EST was:

9074. Did you get any information from her?
- He said, "Do you know the "Titanic" has struck an iceberg, and she is sinking," and he gave me her position."

Californian
was on a rescue mission from start to finish. You only recover bodies.

Groves got his evidence mixed up.

The crew were called 10 minutes after Californian cleared the west side of the ice barrier. Groves arrived on the bridge just before 7 am. Ahead, he saw a small ship on the port bow up against the ice and a larger one on the starboard bow and Californian was heading between the 2. The one on the starboard bow was the Mount Temple. Her Captain recorded Californian passing him going southward at about 7-30 am. At 7-45 am Carpathia was abeam to port axross the ice and at 8 pm Californian had her aweebaft her port beam and Lord then turned his ship in thr dirction of Carpathia. At that moment, Captain Rostron on Carpathia saw Californian "about 6 miles" away to the WSW across the ice barrier. Californian's movements between 7-30pm an 8-30 pm are verified by independent witnesses, Mila.
From the above, if Californian cleared the ice at 6-30 am and
Carpathia was abeam to port an hour and a quarter later. then between 6-30 am and 7-45 am, Califronian steamed about 17 miles. Between 6 am and 6-30 am Californian transited the ice in the direction of about S17W for abot 3 miles. Before that. she moved for a few mintes and drifted for another half hour or so. All of which points to her starting point being very close to where Captain Lord said it was.
 

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