How Far Apart were Titanic and Californian?


Mila

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In fact it is quite possible that Californian was yawing in the northerly wind that had set up after 3 am. However she would not have been see-sawing but changing her heading over a considerable number of minutes. Carpathia was firing a distress signal followed immediately by a Company signal at 15 minute intervals. Work it out for yourself.
Then why Gibson saw three signals in 3 minutes interval? In any case as me you do not accept Sam’s explanation that Californian was swinging back and forth without anybody noticing?
 

Mila

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yellow-funneled steamer
That yellow-funneled steamer was a nice way to lie under oath without actually lying.
Stewart was asked if he thought this yellow-funneled steamer was the Carpathia. He could have said:

”No, she could not have been the Carpathia because Carpathia had red funnel,”

Or he could have said:

”I did not know at the time, but I do now. She could not have been Carpathia because she was at the western side of the ice field.”

However, Stewart said nothing of the kind. Instead he repeated he saw a yellow-funneled steamer which was a misleading truth.
Bur even in his wildest dreams, Stewart could not have foreseen that 100+ years later Mr. Halpern would add the evidence he invented (namely that the sighting of yellow-funneled steamer occurred before the sunrise) to allege that they saw MT.
 
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Jim Currie

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Jim, of course, nobody should talk about the things he does not understand. However, what point Lord was trying to make in his description of the horizon? Surely, if there was any suspicion on what one was looking at, one could have taken glasses to look. Yet, for some reason he made the point that the horizon was soft.
Heavens! "eyes rolling upward in exasperation."
:rolleyes:
Lord was describing the general situation. Witnesses have told you that stars could be seen setting . That means they disappeared to the naked eye below the horizon. However it also means that a ships light right on the horizon could be mistaken for a star and vise-versa.
Lord mentioned to Groves when leaving the bridge at 10-30 pm that he thought he saw a light coming along. Groves was the man with the binoculars. He obviously didn't bother his backside using them for another hour. If he had done so then he would most certainly have seen what Lord saw with the naked eye... a green sidelight.

Here's another "thing".

If Lord saw a ship coming along from the east ward at 10-30 pm and that ship arrived to the SSE at 11-40 pm., then we had a ludicrous situation. Why?
Because if Titanic hit the ice 7 miles SSE of the Californian then she was 47 miles east of her position at 9-25pm and 25.5 miles ESE of her position at 10-40pm. Her green sidelight would not be seen from Californian before it popped above the horizon. That would have been at 11-21 pm.
Incidentally, the greater the distance between the two ship's the more ludicrous the situation becomes.

However if Lord saw a regular 12 knot ship which stopped 5 miles away at 11-40pm Then if he saw it to the east ward, he did so at the extreme range of 14 miles (Groves was sighting ships at 10 to 12 miles).
That ship would have been n a course of 251 True and if Lord saw her green light at about 7 miles away, he did so at about 11-25 pm. However he said his ship stopped at 11-30 0p-m if so, then he saw her green light at about 11-15 pm. He did not see Titanic
 

Jim Currie

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That yellow-funneled steamer was a nice way to lie under oath without actually lying.
Stewart was asked if he thought this yellow-funneled steamer was the Carpathia. He could have said:

”No, she could not have been the Carpathia because Carpathia had red funnel,”

Or he could have said:

”I did not know at the time, but I do now. She could not have been Carpathia because she was at the western side of the ice field.”

However, Stewart said nothing of the kind. Instead he repeated he saw a yellow-funneled steamer which was a misleading truth.
More nonsense, Mila.

Once again you focus on a eurika! idea and ignore the overall picture. the same way you and Sam ignore the sighting of the rockets on the horizon question I put to the both of you.

When Carpathia arrived at Boxhall, she could never have been southward of Californian, not unless the latter was positioned 6 or 7 miles east of the ice barrier. Why? because Carpathia stopped 3,5 to 4 miles east of the ice barrier where he found Boxhall. The Barrier was trending North -South at that position... almost on the 50th Meridian. For Carpathia to be south of Californian at that time, the later would have to have been close to the same longitude as the wreck site. In fact, she was 7.4 miles west of that longitude. Do you understand?
 

Jim Currie

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Then why Gibson saw three signals in 3 minutes interval? In any case as me you do not accept Sam’s explanation that Californian was swinging back and forth without anybody noticing?
Oh heavens! - again.
No one was asked about a swinging bow, so why should they have made a big deal about it? It is a perfectly normal regular thing that happened when a ship is stopped in a wind. She usually lies beam-on to it. If she has regular superstructure even on each side of midship, she will hardly yaw at all . However, irregular windage causes constant adjustments in heading.
If she is in a current, she will do less yawing because the underwater profile is more regular but even then, when she yaws, she creates her own "currents" and that adds complications. Do you understand?
 

Mila

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Oh heavens! - again.
No one was asked about a swinging bow, so why should they have made a big deal about it? It is a perfectly normal regular thing that happened when a ship is stopped in a wind. She usually lies beam-on to it. If she has regular superstructure even on each side of midship, she will hardly yaw at all . However, irregular windage causes constant adjustments in heading.
If she is in a current, she will do less yawing because the underwater profile is more regular but even then, when she yaws, she creates her own "currents" and that adds complications. Do you understand?
I would certainly understand much better, if you are to stop screaming.
And you are dead wrong as always, Jim. Of course nobody asked about the swinging bow, but both men Stone and Gibson made sure to point out that the flashes were positioned apart from each other. In fact, Gibson gave the exact number - two points apart. So if Stone and Gibson knew the ship was swinging why they stressed out that the flashes were positioned apart? besides it seems rather strange that Californian swung back and forth for exactly the same degrees and that Carpathia was seen at the exact locations of where two of the flashes were seen before. It is too much of a coincidence, don’t you think, Jim?

Besides the flashes were 3 minutes apart. You said the rockets were fired every 15 minutes.
 
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Mila

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Once again you focus on a eurika! idea and ignore the overall picture. the same way you and Sam ignore the sighting of the rockets on the horizon question I put to the both of you.
No, I did not ignore your question. I simply believed that I have responded it many times before. In particular I have told you that before alleging that the height of the rockets could indicate the distance, you should explain why survivors watching from lifeboats describe the rockets in a very similar therms as Stone and Gibson do. And here might be a good time to re-examine Gill’s testimony. Why he saw only end tail of the Titanic rockets and did not see much higher and much brighter burst in the sky?
 
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Mila

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If Lord saw a ship coming along from the east ward at 10-30 pm and that ship arrived to the SSE at 11-40 pm., then we had a ludicrous situation.
The key word here is “If”, Jim. Stewart who was with Lord at that moment thought it was a star they were seeing.
 
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When that yellow funneled steamer was seen in the morning light it was southwest of Californian and about 8 miles away. (p. 733 of the AI):
>>Mr. LORD. Not the faintest. At daylight we saw a yellow-funnel steamer on the southwest of us, beyond where this man had left, about 8 miles away.<<
Southwest of Californian would put it on the western side of the ice field. That was not the Carpathia Mila.
 

Mila

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When that yellow funneled steamer was seen in the morning light it was southwest of Californian and about 8 miles away. (p. 733 of the AI):
>>Mr. LORD. Not the faintest. At daylight we saw a yellow-funnel steamer on the southwest of us, beyond where this man had left, about 8 miles away.<<
Southwest of Californian would put it on the western side of the ice field. That was not the Carpathia Mila.
No, Sam. First of all Lord probably took no bearings of Carpathia, but used south-west from what Stone told him about Titanic.
Then the survivors reported seeing lots of ice around them in the morning, and according to Lord only some part of the ice field were heavy. In other parts it was so loose that Californian was able to steam full speed.
Besides as I told you before there probably were some eddies on the edges of the ice field.

However, you have not responded my question about Groves testimony on seeing Carpathia 5 miles away at 6:50 am. Apparently you do not believe it, but could you please explain why. Groves had no reason to lie. Was he also confused?
 

Jim Currie

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No, I did not ignore your question. I simply believed that I have responded it many times before. In particular I have told you that before alleging that the height of the rockets could indicate the distance, you should explain why survivors watching from lifeboats describe the rockets in a very similar therms as Stone and Gibson do. And here might be a good time to re-examine Gill’s testimony. Why he saw only end tail of the Titanic rockets and did not see much higher and much brighter burst in the sky?
Nonsense, again, Mila. What they saw at 3-20 in the moring was in a different direction to what they saw earlier. the only way it would have been in the same directin was it Carpathia arriced at Boxhall at 3-2Oam, not 4-10am.

As fot Gill... A lying git!

"I saw a big vessel going along full speed. She looked as if she might be a big German had been on deck about 10 minutes when I saw a white rocket about 10 miles away on the starboard side. I thought it must be a shooting star. In seven or eight minutes I saw distinctly a second rocket in the same place, and I said to myself, "That must be a vessel in distress."
Senator FLETCHER. About 12.30 you began first to see the rockets?
Mr. GILL.Yes, sir; at first, when I saw it was not very plain.

Did you see any lights on the steamer where the rockets were sent up?
Mr. GILL.No, sir; no sign of the steamer at the time.
Senator FLETCHER. As I understand, you never did see the ship, did you?
Mr. GILL. No, sir; not without the one I seen, the big ship, that I told my mate was a German boat - not without that was the ship in question, the Titanic.


A: There were no moving ships around at midnight
B: There is no way to tell the nationality of a ship at night.
B: The first proiperly identifiead rocket was not seen until 00-50 am or therebouts, not 00-40am
C: It was the Second Officer who saw rockets go up in his Watch, not the Third Officer
D: The ship near to the Californian was in plain sight before Gill ended his Watch and was so right up untl after 2 am."
No serious researcher woul ever give Gil a moment's thought. In fact the man comitted a criminal act and he should have been imprisoned for perjury along with the peron who utterd this in the UK
"The suggestion at one time was that he had made a statement which was not true in America about the distress signals having been sent up, and there was a suggestion at one time made that in consequence of a story which he had put forward, which would not bear examination, he had deserted the vessel at Boston. It is no longer necessary to clear that up, because Mr. Gill's story, as told in America, has - I do not want to say more than this - been very much confirmed by the evidence which we have put before the Court of the various officers -"
 

Jim Currie

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No, Jim, Groves was at the bridge, and Lord was off the bridge:

“When I came off the bridge, at half past 10, I pointed out to the officer that I thought I saw a light coming along”
MIla, Mila, Mila...Groves came on Duty at 8 pm and Stewart went below, Goves as OOW 8 to12,, night and day. Stewart was OOW 4 to 8 Night and day and Stone wa OOW 12 to 4 night and day.
A bit of friendly advice:
If you are going to argue on his site , I suugest you take a crash course on how a ship is navigated and managed. If you don't you will continue to make a fool of yourself in public. ;)
 
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Mila

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MIla, Mila, Mila...Groves came on Duty at 8 pm and Stewart went below, Goves as OOW 8 to12,, night and day. Stewart was OOW 4 to 8 Night and day and Stone wa OOW 12 to 4 night and day.
A bit of friendly advice:
If you are going to argue on his site , I suugest you take a crash course on how a ship is navigated and managed. If you don't you will continue to make a fool of yourself in public. ;)
Jim, if you were not so eager to point out my "mistakes" you might have had more time to read and understand English;)
I mean English your native language. Sadly it is not my native language. I really like your English, the way you use idioms and so on, but please do take more time to read it. Lord testified:


When I came off the bridge, at half past 10, I pointed out to the officer that I thought I saw a light coming along”.

So, at half past 10 Groves was at the Bridge, and Lord and Stewart were off the Bridge.

Did you understand it now, Jim? Do you still believe I should take a crash course on how a ship is navigated and managed? And please do tell me who continues to make a fool of yourself in public, Jim?
 

Mila

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Nonsense, again, Mila. What they saw at 3-20 in the moring was in a different direction to what they saw earlier. the only way it would have been in the same directin was it Carpathia arriced at Boxhall at 3-2Oam, not 4-10am.

As fot Gill... A lying git!
What are you talking about? I am talking about the flashes seen by Stone and Gibson at 3:20 and about the very same flashes seen by the survivors in the lifeboats at the very same time.

I also thought Gill was lying, but he described "low-lying" rockets as Stone did:

Senator FLETCHER.
Which, pale blue or white?


Mr. GILL.
It would be apt to be a very clear blue; I would catch it when it was dying. I did not catch the exact tint, but I reckon it was white.


Senator FLETCHER.
Did it look as if the rocket had been sent up and the explosion had taken place in the air and the stars spangled out?


Mr. GILL.
Yes, sir; the stars spangled out. I could not say about the stars. I say, I caught the tail end of the rocket.

Why Gill was not able to catch it before it was "dying"? Why did he testified he caught only "the tali end of the rocket"?
What was a purpose in such a lie? Would not that lie served him better if he described a spectacular rocket bursting up in the sky in a bright explosion? Instead he kind of reaffirmed the testimony of Stone about low-lying rockets.
 

Cam Houseman

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Jim, if you were not so eager to point out my "mistakes" you might have had more time to read and understand English;)
I mean English your native language. Sadly it is not my native language. I really like your English, the way you use idioms and so on, but please do take more time to read it. Lord testified:


When I came off the bridge, at half past 10, I pointed out to the officer that I thought I saw a light coming along”.

So, at half past 10 Groves was at the Bridge, and Lord and Stewart were off the Bridge.

Did you understand it now, Jim? Do you still believe I should take a crash course on how a ship is navigated and managed? And please do tell me who continues to make a fool of yourself in public, Jim?
Making someone mad isn't the way to get someone respond.

Oh? and you have room to talk Mila? Not to be rude, but you can't say anything:
Post #667
"OK, we slowly getting somewhere. "

Post #680
"Then why Gibson saw three signals in 3 minutes interval?"

Someone should check their grammar.
 

Cam Houseman

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What are you talking about? I am talking about the flashes seen by Stone and Gibson at 3:20 and about the very same flashes seen by the survivors in the lifeboats at the very same time.

I also thought Gill was lying, but he described "low-lying" rockets as Stone did:

Senator FLETCHER.
Which, pale blue or white?


Mr. GILL.
It would be apt to be a very clear blue; I would catch it when it was dying. I did not catch the exact tint, but I reckon it was white.


Senator FLETCHER.
Did it look as if the rocket had been sent up and the explosion had taken place in the air and the stars spangled out?


Mr. GILL.
Yes, sir; the stars spangled out. I could not say about the stars. I say, I caught the tail end of the rocket.

Why Gill was not able to catch it before it was "dying"? Why did he testified he caught only "the tali end of the rocket"?
What was a purpose in such a lie? Would not that lie served him better if he described a spectacular rocket bursting up in the sky in a bright explosion? Instead he kind of reaffirmed the testimony of Stone about low-lying rockets.
Also, attacking people, as you did me, isn't a good feeling, and just makes people lose interest in the conversation, and leave it, as I, and possibly Sam, have done. Your Attack from the other night about my Ignorance was uncalled for.

I will not participate in this thread anymore. Goodbye, take care, and stay Safe, Mila.
 
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Mila

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Also, attacking people, as you did me, isn't a good feeling, and just makes people lose interest in the conversation, and leave it, as I, and possibly Sam, have done. Your Attack from the other night about my Ignorance was uncalled for.

I will not participate in this thread anymore. Goodbye, take care, and stay Safe, Mila.
I am not sure how I will survive without you posting here even though I have never ever attacked you on being ignorant. It was just the opposite. Goodbye, Cam.

So, Sam, your like of Cam’s post means that you too are feeling “attacked“ and you also are not going to post here? Just asking.
 

Cam Houseman

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I am not sure how I will survive without you posting here even though I have never ever attacked you on being ignorant. It was just the opposite. Goodbye, Cam.
Last thing.
You can correct Jim's grammar, but when I correct yours, you report the message? Hm. Must be Different for you.

Goodbye.
 

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