How Far South did the Titanic Reach?

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Aaron_2016

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Pleurisy is usually caused by a bacterial infection. Being out in the cold would have simply aggravated a developing condition. It is probable that Boxhall had a lung infection when he left Titanic but it did not manifest itself for a few days until he got the severe chest pain...that was the pleurisy.

Had a quick glance at the newspapers of the day. Seems his illness made the The Washington Times.



Boxhall1a.PNG





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Jim Currie

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What do you think it is that makes the rotor revolve, Sam? The recorder on the taffrail turning it or the water, acting on the fins of the rotor, as mackerel-spinner like, it is dragged through the water by the ship?
900 turns of the rotor = 1 nautical mile The faster the rotor turns in a given time, the more miles are clocked-up during that given time. During that same time, the ship's propellers are rotating at a fixed rate. Think I'll stick with what I know for sure and that is that the more accurate the Patent Log, the shorter the position lines at sights. 5th Officer Lowe did exactly the same thing. If, as you insist on claiming, Titanic was making 22 knots all afternoon, and that the Patent Log more or less mirrored the rpm speed indicated by the performance of the engines, why then, didn't Lowe tell his questioner:

" Twenty-two point one knots or under; it was really 22, about"

I remind you once again, this is exactly what he said:

"- Twenty-one knots or under; it was really 20.95, about. If the speed had been increased or reduced during the interval when I was off duty, I would have been informed of it.... We are informed of all. Wherever there is an altering of the course, we say, "She is doing so and so, and so and so." "All right." Then you are relieved.
He also said:
6257. But you had means, had you not, of ascertaining definitely how fast the ship was going?
- In what way, sir? We have the log -"


Sadly, the one person who probably informed Lowe about the ship speed at 6 pm., 6th officer Moody, was lost in the disaster.

You keep insisting on this 22 knot speed yet have absolutely no proof or evidence pointing to it Yet you reject out of hand, clear evidence given by the only surviving officer who would know such a thing that the ship speed fell to just under 21 knots without a reduction in engine revolution. I'm afraid your argument would be thrown out of court, Sam.

However, back to what I wanted you to do and that was to confirm or otherwise my idea as to how the false 8 pm DR was arrived at. I take it that since it points to a 24 minute set-back of the clock before impact, you reject it without explanation other than you don't believe it or that somehow everyone was telling lies?
 
May 3, 2005
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Notes from the ex-Navy landlubber . LOL.
It would seem the ship's engine RPM's would remain constant , but the actual ship's speed and distance travel would be affected by wind, current, or a combination of these and maybe others.
Keep up the good work, gentlemen !
I find your discussions educational and fascinating in their details !
 
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Aaron_2016

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Looking at photos from the Carpathia and other ships. Would the log have been affected by the scattered pieces of loose ice passing around it? e.g. Would it disrupt the measurements and flow of water passing around the log line, especially if it had accumulated a volume of ice that attached to it?

0270874fc25d8f09b2aa6b97eb374688.jpg
 
Mar 22, 2003
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What do you think it is that makes the rotor revolve, Sam? The recorder on the taffrail turning it or the water, acting on the fins of the rotor, as mackerel-spinner like, it is dragged through the water by the ship?
As a vessel is moving through the water, the rotor would turn at a rate proportional to the speed that it is being dragged through the water such that it would make so many rotations after being dragged a mile. If the number is 900 turns for each nautical mile, and if the vessel is moving at 22 knots THROUGH THE WATER, then the rotor would have turned 19800 revolutions in one hour. If the vessel is moving at this 22 knot speed through the water against a 2 knot head current, the rotor will still measure 19800 revolutions in one hour because it is still being pulling THROUGH THE WATER at 22 knots. The speed made good of the vessel however is 20 knots. The log cannot measure the speed or direction of the current.

An analogy. A small plane is flying at 100 knots into a 20 knot head wind. The airspeed indicator will measure 100 knots, but the plane will be making only 80 knots over ground, and will take 1 hour and 15 minutes to travel 100 miles over ground instead of 1 hour with no wind.

This is all very basic stuff.

Robert, think odometer.
 

Jim Currie

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In the pictures you show, Aaron the patent Log would not have been streamed. If a ship had towed a Patent Log though that lot, they would have lost the rotor... perhaps even the taffrail gear.
 
A

Aaron_2016

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In the pictures you show, Aaron the patent Log would not have been streamed. If a ship had towed a Patent Log though that lot, they would have lost the rotor... perhaps even the taffrail gear.

Thanks. Do you think the Titanic was steaming through that at the time of her collision? QM Rowe pulled in the line just after the iceberg passed the stern. Was it on account of seeing the iceberg and believing that loose ice would affect the line? Many years later he said he pulled it in because she was going full speed astern. Would the sound or vibration at the stern change considerably if the propellers were crushing loose ice and possibly create the impression she was going astern?

Survivor Seaman Jones told the US Inquiry - "I was sitting in the forecastle. I heard something, just the same as a ship going through a lot of loose ice, and everybody ran on deck right away."

Captain Lord of the Californian was asked:

Q - When you notified the Titanic that you were in the ice, how much ice were you in?
A - Well, we were surrounded by a lot of loose ice, and we were about a quarter of a mile off the edge of the field.

Q - Did the ice extend at all to the eastward or westward of you?
A - It seemed to me to be running more north and south, but whilst we were stopped we were surrounded by loose ice.

Q - From north to south was the field?
A - Yes.

Q - Then when you stopped you got surrounded by the loose ice?
A - I ran into the loose ice before I could stop, before the ship was brought up.

Q - There was ice between you and this vessel?
A - Yes.

Q - And then you noticed this vessel had stopped at half-past 11, presumably also on account of the ice?
A - On account of the ice.


Did the Titanic enter a similar region of loose ice?


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Jim Currie

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As a vessel is moving through the water, the rotor would turn at a rate proportional to the speed that it is being dragged through the water such that it would make so many rotations after being dragged a mile. If the number is 900 turns for each nautical mile, and if the vessel is moving at 22 knots THROUGH THE WATER, then the rotor would have turned 19800 revolutions in one hour. If the vessel is moving at this 22 knot speed through the water against a 2 knot head current, the rotor will still measure 19800 revolutions in one hour because it is still being pulling THROUGH THE WATER at 22 knots. The speed made good of the vessel however is 20 knots. The log cannot measure the speed or direction of the current.

An analogy. A small plane is flying at 100 knots into a 20 knot head wind. The airspeed indicator will measure 100 knots, but the plane will be making only 80 knots over ground, and will take 1 hour and 15 minutes to travel 100 miles over ground instead of 1 hour with no wind.

This is all very basic stuff.

Robert, think odometer.
Perhaps you should take your own advice?

As with a Patent Log, an odometer measures distance, not speed. You are obsessed with this "over the ground thing", Sam.

Let's look at your analogy of an aircraft air speed indicator, I repeat: Air Speed Indicator. It tells the pilot that his aircraft is travelling through air at a speed of 100 knots but it does not tell him how far he has travelled through that very same air space therefore it is not a true air speed indicator nor is it, like a Patent Log, an odometer.
On the other hand, a Patent Log tells the navigator that his ship has travelled a distance of 20.9 miles through water when at the same time, the propeller revolutions indicate to him that his engines are propelling the ship through that same body of water at a speed 22 knots.
In short, the engine rpm ship and the ASI aircraft both indicate speed while a ship's log does not indicate speed but actual distance travelled through the medium. You are not comparing like for like. Why don't you cut to the chase,Sam and answer my questions? I remind you:

1. Was my theory regarding the 20 miles error correct in light of the available evidence? If not, why not?
2. Why do you ignore the speed evidence of Lightoller, Pitman, Boxhall and principally 5th Officer Lowe?

One last point.
Please explain to me why it was that when coasting I could take hourly fixes by cross bearings and find that my patent log distance between fixes matched the actual measured distances between the fixes. In many ships I served in, we had a patent log boomed-out from the bridge area.
 

Jim Currie

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Thanks. Do you think the Titanic was steaming through that at the time of her collision? QM Rowe pulled in the line just after the iceberg passed the stern. Was it on account of seeing the iceberg and believing that loose ice would affect the line? Many years later he said he pulled it in because she was going full speed astern. Would the sound or vibration at the stern change considerably if the propellers were crushing loose ice and possibly create the impression she was going astern?

Survivor Seaman Jones told the US Inquiry - "I was sitting in the forecastle. I heard something, just the same as a ship going through a lot of loose ice, and everybody ran on deck right away."

Captain Lord of the Californian was asked:

Q - When you notified the Titanic that you were in the ice, how much ice were you in?
A - Well, we were surrounded by a lot of loose ice, and we were about a quarter of a mile off the edge of the field.

Q - Did the ice extend at all to the eastward or westward of you?
A - It seemed to me to be running more north and south, but whilst we were stopped we were surrounded by loose ice.

Q - From north to south was the field?
A - Yes.

Q - Then when you stopped you got surrounded by the loose ice?
A - I ran into the loose ice before I could stop, before the ship was brought up.

Q - There was ice between you and this vessel?
A - Yes.

Q - And then you noticed this vessel had stopped at half-past 11, presumably also on account of the ice?
A - On account of the ice.


Did the Titanic enter a similar region of loose ice?


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No Aaron, I do not. In fact the Californian did enter the ice and she lost her patent log and had to stream a replacement.

When Titanic slowed down, the patent log would sink and hang vertically down ward. Not until she was dead in the water and the suction of the propellers running astern started, would there have been and danger to it. Up until then, there would have beenn little or no vibration. However, because she was still going a head when the propellers stopped, there would be a great deal of turmoils round the rudders and the propellers and the minute they started going astern, the vibration would grow stronger and stronger as the turning blades fell into 'cavities' of water at different pressures. The stern would actually start to 'heave' in time with the revs. if you can imagine it.
 
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it was
On the other hand, a Patent Log tells the navigator that his ship has travelled a distance of 20.9 miles through water when at the same time, the propeller revolutions indicate to him that his engines are propelling the ship through that same body of water at a speed 22 knots.
Really? And what would make the patent log indicate a speed of 20.9 knots, excuse me, a distance of 20.9 miles in 1 hour, while the revolutions indicated a water speed of 22 knots? After all, even 5/O Lowe admitted: "We ring him [the engineer] up, and we see how she is doing with the revolutions, whether she is going faster or going slower; and you will find a corresponding difference in the log." You see, the patent log does give you speed through the water if you simply divide the distance run by log by the time of the run. The speed by revolutions comes about by a similar process. What is actually counted down in the engine room is the number of turns of the propellers over say a period of 4 hours. The number reported by the engineer is the number of turns divided by the time, or in this case something like 18000 revolutions divided by 240 minutes = 75 rpm. The actual number of turns for each propeller, including the center one, is what is actually put into the engineer's book. They did not have an rpm indicator.
You are obsessed with this "over the ground thing", Sam.
What I'm pointing out to you and others on this site is that the patent log measures distance travelled through the water by the rotor that is being dragged astern. It does not, and cannot, measure distance made good. But of course that doesn't fit well with your theory that is was the log that measured 126 miles in 6 hours.
 
A

Aaron_2016

Guest
Found an interesting article from April 26th 1912 concerning the patent log.




shipsmeasurements.PNG



Interesting. Curious to know if the magnetic affects from Sable Island had affected the Titanic's compass? Survivors noted the Northern Lights were very strong that night. Would Boxhall's navigational readings have been affected by the proximity of Sable Island and the Northern Lights combined and create a great disturbance in his readings?



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Jim Currie

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it was
Really? And what would make the patent log indicate a speed of 20.9 knots, excuse me, a distance of 20.9 miles in 1 hour, while the revolutions indicated a water speed of 22 knots? After all, even 5/O Lowe admitted: "We ring him [the engineer] up, and we see how she is doing with the revolutions, whether she is going faster or going slower; and you will find a corresponding difference in the log." You see, the patent log does give you speed through the water if you simply divide the distance run by log by the time of the run. The speed by revolutions comes about by a similar process. What is actually counted down in the engine room is the number of turns of the propellers over say a period of 4 hours. The number reported by the engineer is the number of turns divided by the time, or in this case something like 18000 revolutions divided by 240 minutes = 75 rpm. The actual number of turns for each propeller, including the center one, is what is actually put into the engineer's book. They did not have an rpm indicator.

What I'm pointing out to you and others on this site is that the patent log measures distance travelled through the water by the rotor that is being dragged astern. It does not, and cannot, measure distance made good. But of course that doesn't fit well with your theory that is was the log that measured 126 miles in 6 hours.

Got to give you 10 out of 10 for tenacity Sam. However I do not need a lecture on what goes on in the engine room or bridge of a ship at sea. Nor do I need to be reminded as to how a ship's log works in practice.

It was not and never has been my "theory" that the the log measured 126 miles in 6 hours. Rather, it is the exercise of simple logic applied to the evidence that you completely reject. By that I of course mean the evidence of the man who was actually there at the time, a man who despite his lowly (excuse the pun) rank, was a fully qualified Master Mariner. A man who ate slept and dreamed practical navigation. I am of course referring to 5th Officer Lowe.

Once again, perhaps in a simpler way? After all, I'm just a simple sailor.

The taffrail unit supplied as part of the Patent Log equipment is simply a sophisticated tachometer, i.e. it counts revolutions, revolutions made by the rotor towed behind the ship. The rotor moves the same distance as the ship. If the ship moves fast the rotor turns fast. Conversely, if the rotor slows down, it indicates that the ship has slowed down. It is independent of he ship's engines and can be seriously effected by external influences.

"They did not have an rpm indicator."

Really? If they did not then that was possibly the strangest engine room in any power driven ship in history. Or are you picking nits again? If so.. we'll call it a tachometer.

The main engines would have had a tachometer (revolution) counter in the engine room near to the control valve. It simply recorded the total number of revolutions. At the end of each Watch, the 'Junior' would note the reading. On a scrap of paper, he would subtract that reading from the one taken at the end of the previous Watch and note the results in the ER Log Book. He would also pass the result to the bridge where it would be noted in the scrap log.

The engine tachometer simply recorded the accumulated turns the engines made and consequently, the number of turns the propellers made. The engines and the number of turns of the propellers were not and still are not, effected by external influences. However the ship was and is. With a head sea and current, the ship slows down but the engines keep running at the prescribed turns per minute. At the same time, the taffrail "tachometer" and the rotor which operates it also slow down and fewer revolutions of the rotor are recorded.

If the patent Log worked in the way you described, Sam, it would be as much use (as my oil field friends used to say).. to a ship's navigator as would " the mammary glands on a boar hog".



 

Jim Currie

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Found an interesting article from April 26th 1912 concerning the patent log.




View attachment 2430


Interesting. Curious to know if the magnetic affects from Sable Island had affected the Titanic's compass? Survivors noted the Northern Lights were very strong that night. Would Boxhall's navigational readings have been affected by the proximity of Sable Island and the Northern Lights combined and create a great disturbance in his readings?



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Well found, Aaron!

I must say that in all the times I was in the vicinity of Sable Island, I never noticed any problems with the compass. but then, although we did have a magnetic compass, the use of such a compasses for steering or finding the ship's position died with the advent of the Gyro Compass which did not depend on any form of magnetism except in the use of electricity transformers.

In fact, the Island was 450 miles away to the northwestward of Titanic's track. Any what they call magnetic anomaly would have been local and would not have effected Titanic's navigation. In fact the concentration of the magnetic anomaly follows the 100 fathom contour to the south. Nowadays, it is of greatest interest to those exploring the sub ocean floor for the presence of hydrocarbons.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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Really? If they did not then that was possibly the strangest engine room in any power driven ship in history. Or are you picking nits again? If so.. we'll call it a tachometer.
Yeah, I'll pick nits, since you seem to dismiss everything I said about how the average number of revolutions per minute are obtained and recorded. First of all, it's called a revolution counter, not a tachometer. A tachometer measures rotations per unit of time. As I said, they had no tachometer. I'll let a C/E from another WSL vessel of the period explain it:

A. We have a counter that only gives the aggregate of the revolutions.
Q. You say you have a counter?
A. Yes, we have a counter for the revolutions... That does not give the average revolutions; it just gives the total revolutions the engines make from one period to another.

And if you would bother to read the little example I gave you would see how the average rpm was obtained per watch period.

As far as the patent log, it measures speed through the water. It has no way of knowing how the body of water itself is moving. Given that a moderate wind was coming off the ship's starboard quarter all that afternoon of the 14th, you cannot claim that it was the wind that would slow the vessel's forward progress at all.

I think I'm done with this.
 

Jim Currie

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Yeah, I'll pick nits, since you seem to dismiss everything I said about how the average number of revolutions per minute are obtained and recorded. First of all, it's called a revolution counter, not a tachometer. A tachometer measures rotations per unit of time. As I said, they had no tachometer. I'll let a C/E from another WSL vessel of the period explain it:

A. We have a counter that only gives the aggregate of the revolutions.
Q. You say you have a counter?
A. Yes, we have a counter for the revolutions... That does not give the average revolutions; it just gives the total revolutions the engines make from one period to another.

And if you would bother to read the little example I gave you would see how the average rpm was obtained per watch period.

As far as the patent log, it measures speed through the water. It has no way of knowing how the body of water itself is moving. Given that a moderate wind was coming off the ship's starboard quarter all that afternoon of the 14th, you cannot claim that it was the wind that would slow the vessel's forward progress at all.

I think I'm done with this.
Your reply says it all Sam. "since you seem to dismiss everything I said "... Well, unlike you, I at least positively responded to what you said.

"As far as the patent log, it measures speed through the water. It has no way of knowing how the body of water itself is moving. Given that a moderate wind was coming off the ship's starboard quarter all that afternoon of the 14th, you cannot claim that it was the wind that would slow the vessel's forward progress at all. "

Since it is an inanimate object, and you're on the subject of picking nits: I think you are safe in observing that the Patent Log gear has no way of knowing anything., However, it's rotor can react to something... in this case, the pressure of the moving water on it's fins. This causes the rotor to spin. The spin is transmitted via the trailing line and governor to the taffrail unit which, in turn, counts and records the number of spins. It most certainly does not " measure speed through the water".
 

Jim Currie

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Actually, it is not the pressure of the 'moving' water on it's fins but the pressure on the fins due to being dragged through the water. Here's a wee picture you might like:

Hardings_Tacho_Minesweeper-748x554 (1).jpg