How Far South did the Titanic Reach?

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Aaron_2016

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Yes, it certainly looks like that, Aaron. However the impact on the sea bed was considerable and the blade may be buried or simply ripped-off..........

Thanks. I figured the blade might have broken the ice when it made contact and not affect the other blades as the first blow would be the hardest and broke the ice as the ship passed by rapidly, or perhaps when it made contact with the ice the propeller immediately jammed and stopped rotating with one blade embedded in the ice. It has always fascinated me that QM Rowe witnessed the iceberg pass the stern perhaps less than 10 feet away and yet it missed the starboard propeller.






propellerice.PNG



or slightly further away


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Survivors described a noticeable list to port on Sunday. I wonder if this would cause the propeller to protrude out more and make contact with the iceberg? Never understood why Boxhall said in 1962 (not long after watching A Night To Remember) he said Murdoch told the Captain "I'm going full speed astern sir, on the port engine." Yet Boxhall said he witnessed both engine telegraphs indicating full astern. Assuming it was damaged, would Murdoch order both to full astern, but the engine room could only comply with the port engine as the starboard prop (and maybe the shaft?) were damaged by the iceberg, so despite Murdoch having ordered both engines to reverse, only the port one could achieve this, which led to Murdoch saying "I'm going full speed astern sir, on the port engine"?



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Mar 22, 2003
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The patent log measures distance travelled through the water, not distance made good. If the speed of the ship dropped to 21 knots for a 6 hour period, then the distance through the water shown on the log would advance 42 miles every two hours when log was taken. As Lowe explained, when asked about comparing engine revolutions to the log readings,

"We ring him [the engineer] up, and we see how she is doing with the revolutions, whether she is going faster or going slower; and you will find a corresponding difference in the log."

We were told that the ship was carrying 75 to 76 rpm since noontime Saturday, and carrying 75 rpm as late as 11pm Sunday night. There was no increase or decrease in engine revolutions. We were also told that the two hour advance between 8 and 10pm was about 45 miles. We were also told that from noon to the collision the ship advanced 260 miles through the water by log. If the ship was making close to 45 miles by log every two hours carrying 75 rpm, then to advance only 42 miles every two hours between noon and 6pm the revolutions must have gone down to about 70 rpm over that time period in a corresponding manner.
 
A

Aaron_2016

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The Titanic conducted a series of S-turns before she reached Queenstown. Did something similar occur afterwards which affected the real distance she travelled? Survivors also noticed the ship was listing to port on Sunday. Would that cause the ship to veer slightly off course? - Mr. Chambers - "The ship had a list to port nearly all afternoon." Would that also affect the ship's compass?



Titanicturning.jpg



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Jim Currie

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Good question, indeed. Hichens, Rowe and Fleet exspected to be releaved at 12.23 not altered time.

Now have a look on the testimony of Mr Rowe:

Senator BURTON. Where were you the night of the collision?
Mr. ROWE. I felt a slight jar and looked at my watch. It was a fine night, and it was then 20 minutes to 12.
I looked toward the starboard side of the ship and saw a mass of ice. I then remained on the after bridge to await orders through the telephone. No orders came down, and I remained until 25 minutes after 12, when I saw a boat on the starboard beam.

I think Rowe is not switching between altered and unaltered time. His statement is given consequently in unaltered time. Supposed, the collision occured at 12.04 unaltered time, it is unlikly that a boat was lowered at 12.25.

Hichens was supposed to stay on duty in the wheelhouse unless new orders were given. The question is where the order to clear the boats was given, on the Bridge or outside? So Hichens did not get it, or he was forgotten similar as was Rowe.
1041. What was that you heard about the boats?
- I heard the Captain say "Get all the boats out and serve out the belts." That was after 12.
Hichens
I have some problems with the testimony of Fleet, his testimony in US looks sowewhat unsettled, unsure:
Mr. FLEET. Well, I reported an iceberg right ahead, a black mass.
Senator SMITH. When did you report that?
Mr. FLEET. I could not tell you the time.
Senator SMITH. About what time?
Mr. FLEET. Just after seven bells.
--- maybe there is one anchor point here, would that be 11.30 or 11.53?
Senator SMITH. How long after you had taken your place in the crow's nest?
Mr. FLEET. The watch was nearly over. I had done the best part of the watch up in the nest.
Senator SMITH. How long a watch did you have?
Mr. FLEET. Two hours; but the time was going to be put back - that watch.
Senator SMITH. The time was to be set back?
Mr. FLEET. Yes, sir.
Senator SMITH. Did that alter your time?
Mr. FLEET. We were to get about 2 hours and 20 minutes.
Senator SMITH. How long before the collision or accident did you report ice ahead?
Mr. FLEET. I have no idea.
Senator SMITH. About how long?
Mr. FLEET. I could not say, at the rate she was going.
Senator SMITH. How fast was she going?
Mr. FLEET. I have no idea.
Senator SMITH. Would you be willing to say that you reported the presence of this iceberg an hour before the collision? Mr. FLEET. No, sir.
Senator SMITH. Forty-five minutes? Mr. FLEET. No. sir.
Senator SMITH. A half hour before? Mr. FLEET. No, sir.
Senator SMITH. Fifteen minutes before? Mr. FLEET. No, sir.
Senator SMITH. Ten minutes before?
Mr. FLEET. No, sir.
Senator SMITH. How far away was this black mass when you first saw it?
Mr. FLEET. I have no idea, sir.
Senator SMITH.
Can you not give us some idea? Did it impress you as serious?
Mr. FLEET. I reported it as soon as ever I seen it.
Hello Markus,

Studied in the cold light of day or to be more precise, in retrospect, the evidence of both lookouts as to what they saw and when they saw it is very suspicious. However, if you examine the responses of their questioners, you will discover that they too were probing... trying to get to the truth. The persistent repetition from the questioners must have been terrifying in itself. However, put yourself inside the heads of the Lookouts, or Helmsman Hichens.
These men had just witnessed and subsequently survived the most horrifying incident in their lives up until that moment. No one in the entire world had previously seen such a thing. The newspapers, like this site, were full of ill-informed accusations directed in all directions.
However, unlike all of the other survivors, Fleet and Lee were the only ones who, in the vernacular, "Saw it coming". We have seen movies whereby the hero blames him or herself for the death of someone. If Fleet and Lee felt they should have seen that iceberg earlier, how must they have felt? The series of questions and answers you quoted answer that question.
 
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Mar 22, 2003
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Never understood why Boxhall said in 1962
He said a lot of things in 1962 that were at variance with what he said in 1912. So did Rowe for that matter when he wrote several letters to Ed Kamuda of the THS in the 1960s. Stories tend to change with time.
By the way, turning at 75 rpm, it is highly unlikely that only one blade would be damaged in contact with ice. The missing blade you don't see in the wreck picture would be berried under the sea floor.
 

Rob Lawes

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It certainly wouldn't effect the compass. All ships compasses would have been held in a gimbled binnacle that would have ensured that it would remain horizontal in even the roughest seas.
 
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And by the way, if the clock had been put back that night then the time from 7 bells at 11:30 to 8 bells would have been 53 or 54 minutes, not the usual 30 minutes, and the accident would have happened 33 or 34 minutes after 7 bells was struck. But we have multiple sources, including lookout Lee who was up in the nest with Fleet, who said that the accident happened about 10 minutes after 11:30, not 33 or 34 minutes after.
Sam, I more or less agree with everyting.
The Overall Impression of reading the testimonies is, the persons of relieved watch exspected to be relieved at 12.23 equivalent with 8 bells, the persons of relieving watch intended to go on duty at 12 o'clock equivalent with 8 bells.
I think 8 bells were struck, and the time between 7 and 8 bells was 53 (or 54) minutes. See Symons, Br11418

Here some quotes from lookout George Symons:
11355. You heard afterwards what the time was? - Yes, I did not know the time then.
11356. What time was this? - By the time I got on deck it must have been about one bell, a quarter to twelve.
-- that would be 12.08 in unaltered time --
11359. What did you do when you got on deck? - I came on deck and I went into the mess room in the course of ordinary events to see if there was any coffee. From there I heard the water coming in to No. 1 hold. I looked down No. 1 hold, and hardly had I looked down there when the order came for "All hands on the boat deck."
11360. You said you looked down No. 1 hold. Before you got that order, "All hands on the boat deck," had you seen any water? - Yes, water coming in No. 1.
...
11417. When you got on to the boat deck, what order did you get then? - The order I got on the boat deck from Mr. Murdoch, and also the boatswain was, they gave an order to uncover the boats and get the falls out. I assisted generally in the boats on the starboard fore end, 3, 5, and 7.
11418. Before you go on telling us what happened then, can you give us any idea what time it was when you noticed this water reaching nearly to the coamings of the hatch? - I should think, roughly estimating it, it would be about five minutes to twelve, because, as I was on my way to the deck, so they struck eight bells in the crow's-nest.
-- 12.23 unaltered time --

11721. I suppose this is what you are referring to, My Lord, I am now referring to his deposition made on 2nd May, 1912. The only passages I find which refer to this at all are these, and I think they contain the part he now wants to correct. It is quite short. It Begins: "Shortly after I had got on the boat deck I noticed rockets being fired at very frequent intervals from the bridge, Morse signals being used; and at about 12.30 I saw about one point on the port bow distant some five or six miles a light which I took to be the stern light of a cod bank fisherman."
That is right? - That is right.

This will put the start time for rockets beeing fired somewhere at 12.23, 8 bells.
The problem with the time arises as soon as we try to merge CQD and rockets seen from Californian with ship's time.

Reading the testimonies of Rowe, Hichens, Fleet the conclusion will be, no clocks were set back, and ship's time is 1.57 or 2.02 fast of new York time.
This will place the first CQD at 12.25! ship's time, and Boxhall's corrected Position at 12.35.
Stone, Gibson and Gill saw rockets between 0.40 and 1 .40 Californian time, this will be 0.50 to 1.50 Titanic ship's time.
Strange, 1 hour 10 minutes after the collision they would have started firing rockets.

Lightollers 1 h 33 minutes conversion does not match with the assumption that clocks were not altered, but it gives fairly reasonable results concerning the CDQ and the rockets:
First CQD: 11.58, corrected Position: 00.08.
To match the rockets, instead of stepping 10 minutes forward go back 17 minutes from Californian time:
Stone, Gibson and Gill saw rockets between 0.40 and 1 .40 Californian time, this now will be 0.23 to 1.23 Titanic ship's time.

Let's do a cross check with Boxhall's testimony:
15378. We have been told that at some time you called the other Officers; both Mr. Lightoller and Mr. Pitman said you called them? - I did. That was after I reported to the Captain about the mail room.
15379. Could you form any opinion as to how long that was after the impact? - No, but as near as I could judge; I have tried to place the time for it, and the nearest I can get to it is approximately 20 minutes to half-an-hour.
-- 12.00 til 12.10 --

15384. When the order was given to clear the boats what did you do; did you go to any particular boat?
- No, I went right along the line of boats and I saw the men starting, the watch on deck, our watch.
15385. Which side of the ship? - The port side, I went along the port side, and afterwards I was down the starboard side as well but for how long I cannot remember. I was unlacing covers on the port side myself and I saw a lot of men come along - the watch I presume. They started to screw some out on the afterpart of the port side; I was just going along there and seeing all the men were well established with their work, well under way with it, and I heard someone report a light, a light ahead. I went on the bridge and had a look to see what the light was.
15386. Someone reported a light ahead?
- Yes; I do not know who reported it. There were quite a lot of men on the bridge at the time.
15387. Did you see the light? - Yes, I saw a light.
15388. What sort of light was it? - It was two masthead lights of a steamer. But before I saw this light I went to the chart room and worked out the ship's Position.
....
15390. Was it after that you saw this light?
- It was after that, yes, because I must have been to the marconi office with the position after I saw the light.
--- 12.08 time for corrected Position -- Boxhall knew there was a light, therefore it makes sense to send rockets now and not to wait until 12.50.
15391. You took it to the marconi office in order that it might be sent by the wireless operator? - I submitted the position to the Captain first, and he told me to take it to the marconi room.
15392. And then you saw this light which you say looked like a masthead light? - Yes, it was two masthead lights of a Steamer.
15393. Could you see it distinctly with the naked eye? - No, I could see the light with the naked eye, but I could not define what it was, but by the aid of a pair of glasses I found it was the two masthead lights of a vessel, probably about half a point on the port bow, and in the position she would be showing her red if it were visible, but she was too far off then.
15394. Could you see how far off she was? - No, I could not see, but I had sent in the meantime for some rockets, and told the Captain I had sent for some rockets, and told him I would send them off, and told him when I saw this light. He said, "Yes, carry on with it." I was sending rockets off and watching this steamer.

To solve this never ending time problem we need a version which combines in some way the case that clocks were not set back, but ship's time has to be converted in NYT with 1 h 33 minutes.
 
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Hello Jim, in post 131 you said:
By 4 pm, Captain Smith would see from the Log Book that instead of covering a distance of 86.4 miles as he estimated she would have done by that time, the ship had only covered a distance of 84 miles. In fact, he found that the current was 0.6 knots stronger than he anticipated. i.e. 1.1 knots instead of 0.5 knots. He knew that the general direction of the current would be ENE. So with this information he would go to his chart room and see what effect the new information would have on his plans.

I think we agree that the log always indicates speed through the water.
When the ship goes at 22 knots with a current of 1 knot against the direction of drive, the distance made good is just 21 miles per hour, but the log indicates 22 knots. So from the log one can not tell the current.

In fact if she had been steering 266 True, she would have made 265 True due to the changing magnetic variation.


Hichens said, the steering course was N 71 West, or 289°.
The intention was to make 265° true. The difference between these two is 24° (Variation + Deviation).

Lord gave some figures for variation, 24,75° near the Corner, 24° near longitude 50°.
6782. (The Attorney-General.) What Variation? - The variation that day at noon was 24 3/4. She was about 24 when we were stopped; the deviation would be about 2E, making an error of 22W.

As the variation decreases by one degree going west, the true course will change from 265 to 266.
But I have my doubt whether this is the reason why Boxhall claimed 86° instead of 85°

Maybe, during checking the compass error he found the deviation needed correction by 1°, and therefore the true course was corrected as well, while steering course remained unchanged.
 

Jim Currie

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This is all starting to sound like a broken vinyl record. At the risk of repeating myself for the Nth time:

Read carefully Fleet's words in answer to the question of how long of a watch did they have. He did not say that his watch lasted two hours and twenty minutes. What he did say was that it lasted 2 hours, but they were suppose to get about 2 hours 20 minutes.. His exact words were: "Two hours; but the time was going to be put back - that watch...We were to get about 2 hours and 20 minutes." He never said they got 2 hours and 20 minutes. In the so called normal course of events, a lookout's watch up in the nest lasted 2 hours which was served fours times a day except for the 10pm to midnight lookout watch and midnight to 2am lookout watch. Those were the only ones that were either longer or shorter than normal because of the clock change that occurred around midnight.

Hichens was simply saying that he had no idea if they ever put the clock back that night. Up until the time he left the wheelhouse, at 12:23, he did not see it go back. He was very clear that he was at the wheel 1 hour and 40 minutes when three bells were struck up in the nest, and then was relieved when QM Perkis arrived at 12:23. If the clock had gone back earlier, then Perkis should have arrived by 12:00 altered time, which by the way, is what Perkis said he did; i.e., waited until he was due on deck at midnight. It was when Perkis arrived that a senior officer noticed them in the wheelhouse and ordered them to go to help clear the boats.

And by the way, if the clock had been put back that night then the time from 7 bells at 11:30 to 8 bells would have been 53 or 54 minutes, not the usual 30 minutes, and the accident would have happened 33 or 34 minutes after 7 bells was struck. But we have multiple sources, including lookout Lee who was up in the nest with Fleet, who said that the accident happened about 10 minutes after 11:30, not 33 or 34 minutes after.

As for Bosun's mate Haines, he was simply setting the record straight about when the ship struck. As Fleet said, the clock was supposed to go back during his watch on deck. Haines removed the ambiguity about the time when he said that the right time without putting the clock back was 20 minutes to twelve. He didn't say the right time without putting the clock back a second time. For me, it doesn't get any clearer.

And the other point I keep repeating is the physical evidence of the two log readings that we were given, the 45 mile advance over two hours and how it relates to the 260 miles between noon and the collision. If the time period from noon to collision was 12 hours and 4 minutes, as you and David keep insisting, then the average two hour advance of the ship through the water would have been 43.1 miles, well under what we were told. However, if the time between noon and the collision was 11 hours 40 minutes, then the average advance of the log works out to 44.6 miles, which fits right in with what we were told.

Oh, I also left out those that were waiting up in the smoking room for the clock change to occur at midnight so they could set their personal timepieces to the new time which never happened because an accident got in the way. Or those that had their watches set earlier that evening to ship's time and noticed that the ship struck at about a quarter to twelve.
Hello Sam.

There is an old saying that if you keep repeating the same thing, people will begin to believe you. However, repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it the truth.

I suggest you take your own advice and stop selectively accepting evidence. In case you did not know it, an Attorney does not ask random questions... he asks them at random, However he has a purpose in asking them. Now I suggest you read the following exchange carefully in the light of that knowledge.

The Senator simply wanted to know how long it was, after impact that Fleet saw the iceberg, not the length of Fleets duty time. I suggest to you that Fleet had a guilt complex and attempted to divert the line of questioning away from answers that might in some way suggest that he was a cause of the disaster. In the following exchange he tells us two things. (1) that his time in the Crow's Nest was nearly over and that he was to be up there for about 2 hours and 20 minutes.

" "Senator SMITH.: How long after you had taken your place in the crow's nest [did you see the iceberg]? A: The watch was nearly over. I had done the best part of the watch up in the nest.... We were to get about 2 hours and 20 minutes."

Since the time of impact was 11-40 pm, that would tell his questioner that if his time up there was nearly over, he did not have almost 1/3 rd of his time still to serve in the Crow's Nest. Like you, Senator Smith might have had a problem getting his head round that answer but his advisers most certainly would not have had any problem with it.

Then the senator tried to get the answer... as to how long before impact did Fleet see the ice berg...another way:

"Q: How long a watch did you have? A: Two hours; but the time was going to be put back - that watch.
Q: The time was to be set back? A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did that alter your time? A: We were to get about 2 hours and 20 minutes.


Still no joy, Fleet was waffling again, attempting to divert his questioner. He knew very well that the 10 to 12 part of the 8 to 12 Watch was always longer that than 2 hours when going West. So did the good Senator, so back to the original question:

"Q: How long before the collision or accident did you report ice ahead?"

But hey! You are the one who advised "Read carefully Fleet's words in answer to the question of how long of a watch did they have". AND "but those who were on duty and most aware of the true time"

In light of your own advice, Why do you completely reject the following from Fleet

5255. You remained in the crow's nest? A: - I remained in the crow's nest until I got relief.
5256. And Lee remained in the nest? A: - Yes.
5257. How long did you stay there? A: - About a quarter of an hour to 20 minutes after.
5258. After what? A: - After the accident.
5217. How long after you had taken your place in the crow's nest? A: - The watch was nearly over. I had done the best part of the watch up in the nest.
17318. Then did you remain on the crow's-nest? A: - Yes.
17319. Until eight bells? A: - Till eight bells went.
17320. At eight bells, in the ordinary course, you were relieved? A: - Yes.










 

Jim Currie

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Of course he didn't do what he said. He did it YOUR way, which also means that when the ship turned at 5:50pm it had to be well south and east of the corner instead of south and west of the corner as Boxhall said it was.
Letting lose a shoal of red herrings again, Sam? I'll ignore the sarcasm as unbecoming of a serious debate although I'm tempted to lower the tone of things.
No Sam, 5th Officer Lowe did not do 'it' my way or for that matter your way, he did it in his own way. It is not my way that puts Titanic east and south of The Corner, it is the proper interpretation of the evidence given by Lowe and it is most certainly not as you describe it "well to the south". In fact, it is at a point close to 41 59.5'North, 46-52'West.
We'll use your 126 mile difference between Noon April 14 and the position of The Corner. That gives an April 14 Noon position of 43-02'North, 44-32'West.
Lowe clearly stated that the ship averaged 20. 95 knots from Noon that day and turned at 5-50 pm. Consequently she covered a distance of 122.2 miles before she turned right. If you use that distance and a CMG of 239 True, you will find that Titanic turned at a point which was 5.9 miles almost due east of The Corner. If she turned onto 265 True at 5-50 pm, she would have passed exactly 0.6 miles due south of The Corner, 17 minutes later at 7 minutes past 6 pm. Then, she would have had 131.9 miles to run before she met her fate.
If her steering was good then when the 7-30 pm sights were taken, she would have been very close to the prescribed tack line of 264 3/4 True. These numbers fit almost perfectly with the evidence Sam. Unlike you, I don't need to speculate to make them fit. I don't have to modify any of the words spoken by any of the witnesses. Work it out for yourself.
 
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Studied in the cold light of day or to be more precise, in retrospect, the evidence of both lookouts as to what they saw and when they saw it is very suspicious. However, if you examine the responses of their questioners, you will discover that they too were probing... trying to get to the truth. The persistent repetition from the questioners must have been terrifying in itself. However, put yourself inside the heads of the Lookouts, or Helmsman Hichens.
These men had just witnessed and subsequently survived the most horrifying incident in their lives up until that moment. No one in the entire world had previously seen such a thing.
Hello Jim, very good remark, I agree.
It was not so my intention to blame Fleet for giving vague or inaccurate testimony. Probably he had no watch at hand, so he had nothing else than the bell strokes as base for his time estimations. So we have got his statements "short after 7 bells" and "he went down a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes after the accident".

Senator SMITH. And then did you leave this place? Mr. FLEET. We got relieved by the other two men.
Senator SMITH. The other two men came? Mr. FLEET. Yes.
Senator SMITH. Did they go up? Mr. FLEET. They came up in the nest.
Senator SMITH. And you got down? Mr. FLEET. We got down; yes.

This looks as if he was orderly relieved at 12.23. But one can understand that in his situation he was not able to give precise time estimations.
My Point was, one can not take his testimony as proof that the collision occured 20 minutes before the end of his watch and squeeze other testimonies to make them fit.
The situation of Rowe was quite different. He had no reason to feel himself guilty for that accident. He was waiting on the poop deck waiting for the end of his watch and obviously did not realize something serious had happend before he saw the boat beeing lowered,
 
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Jim Currie

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Hello Marcus.

In the days of Titanic, there were different schools of thought among navigators as to the method of working DR positions. Many thought themselves to be 'modern', i.e. that it was, as they say in modern day parlance, 'cool' to use engine RMP to work-up a Dead Reckoning position.
You mention 'playing games' and 'flat angles'. That's fine, but in fact, if we want to arrive at the truth of the matter, we have to try and think like a practical navigator. For example, speed over the ground has been mentioned as an influencing factor. Nothing could be farthest from the truth. In fact, if you had made that reference to me or any other navigator back then, you would have been considered to be a 'little unhinged" since we though in terms of water. The very word ground held untold terrors for us. The term 'simple sailor' comes to mind.
5th Officer Lowe would have been considered a 'rebel' in his day. He used the patent log for what it was designed to do.. as an aid to navigation... not a scientifically accurate instrument upon which life and death depended. That attitude was prevalent at sea right up until the advent of Sat. Nav.
The evidence tell us that the patent log read o at Noon April, 14 and read 260 nautical miles a minute after impact. For the purist among us; since Titanic was making about 22 knots when she hit the ice (the combination of turning hard left and the effect of contact would have caused her speed to immediately begin to fall rapidly; this would suggest that at the moment of impact, the Patent Log read about 259.4 nautical miles. However, back to reality. Here is a little sketch I made some time ago:
Navigation on Sunday.JPG
You use the expression "Gulf Stream". If we are going to be exact, the Gulf Stream end as such at about 60 West and its ENE extension becomes the North Atlantic Current. It was the North Atlantic Current which effected the progress of Titanic. Anyone who has ever experience these phenomenon will tell you that their influence can be felt very abruptly. That's because both the Gulf Stream and to lesser extent The North Atlantic Current are relatively narrow, well defined bodies of fast moving, warm water. In the area of The Corner, it was flowing close to ENE that day. Here's is how it is described by Captain Charles Johnston who was in command of the revenue cutter "Seneca", which went out on the so called ice patrol off the Grand Banks of Newfoundland:
Limitation of Liability Hearings
"Q. And when the berg gets into the Gulf Stream , its tendency is to move in what direction under ordinary conditions, quiet conditions of water, ordinary conditions of water? A: - East between, longitudes 50 and 49, then rapidly curving to the north.region of We can get a very good idea of its northern margin if we plot the sea temperatures".

The field ice during the time of the disaster, had reached it's southern limit. The bigger bergs in that area were en-trained in the warm stream and moving eastward. These were the ones which Carpathia met with as she rushed in her rescue mission and the ones seen to the SE by Captain Lord when he was looking for survivors. These indicate the northern edge of the eastward flowing extension of the Gulf Stream.
The temperature logged by the Californian at 4 pm that afternoon when she was near to 48-30'West, indicate where the northern edge crossed the 42nd parallel. In the following chart I have plotted the information:
Temp-100m-eng.jpg

As for how I know Titanic was to the southward of her course at Noon? I calculated the Great Circle final course for The Corner. If she had been right on the prescribed line she would have been on a course of 236.5 True. In fact, she was on 241.5 True. Therefore, when they found the solar Noon position for April 14, they had to alter course 4 degrees to the right and aim directly at The Corner.
The reason why she was off course was the wind. Before Noon it was brisk from the NW...pushing her to the SE of her intended course. After Noon, when the course was set to 240.5 True, the breeze came round to the North and continued to push the ship to the south of her intended course. We know the prevailing weather conditions from the Log of the SS Californian which was in the same area around the same time. We also know that Titanic was in an ever-building, massive High Pressure area of weather thus the wind would veer through North then decrease.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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This discussion is interesting but academic.
Yes it is because many assumptions are being made. Case in point:
He must have got it from a Patent Log Reading. He came on Watch at 6 pm that evening. At that time, the Patent Log reading would have been passed to the bridge. He would simply have divided that reading by 6 to get an average speed from Noon that day.
Lowe actually said that he got that speed by: "I used the speed for the position at 8 o'clock, and got it by dividing the distance from noon to the corner by the time that had elapsed from noon until the time we were at the corner." It was also Lowe who worked the course and distance from noon to the corner while he was on duty from noon till 4pm, "I worked the course from noon until what we call the 'corner'; that is, 42 north, 47 west. I really forget the course now. It is 60º 33 1/2' west - that is as near as I can remember - and 162 [126?] miles to the corner." When he spoke of the use of the log it was in response to being asked how he knew for certain that he used the right speed in getting his 8pm DR. Lowe's response was: "In what way, sir? We have the log -" He was then asked by Sen. Smith, "And inasmuch as you did not take the revolutions, I wondered whether you were strictly accurate when you defined the ship's position at 8 o'clock." Lowe then went on to talk about the unfinished slip table they were working on, and mentioned that if they had increased or decreased the speed while he was off duty (between 4 and 6pm) then he would have been informed of it.

With respect to the log and revolutions, Lowe also pointed out, "We ring him up, and we see how she is doing with the revolutions, whether she is going faster or going slower; and you will find a corresponding difference in the log." If the log registered 126 miles in 6 hours, then it would register an advance of 42 miles in two hours with the same number of revolutions. Yet we were told that the log advanced about 45 miles in two hours. That's an increase of 3 miles in two hours, or just over 7%. For that to happen, the revolutions would have to have increased from 75rpm to about 80rpm, which did not happen. The other data point in log miles came from Rowe who took the reading when the struck and said it was 260 miles. If the time was 11h and 40m, then that is an average advance of 44.6 miles every two hours, which is certainly in keeping with 75rpm. (If the actual advance between 8 and 10pm was 45.0 miles, then that would imply the revolutions over that two hour period had increased by 0.7 rpm from the 75rpm average. But my guess was that 45 miles was a rounded number to begin with.)
Case 3, westerly wind, no head current, log reading 126 miles in six hours, 126 miles made good, 21 knots over ground.
It would have to be a relatively strong head wind to loose a full knot in speed. Besides, the moderate wind that afternoon came over the ship's starboard quarter.
 

Jim Currie

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The patent log measures distance travelled through the water, not distance made good. If the speed of the ship dropped to 21 knots for a 6 hour period, then the distance through the water shown on the log would advance 42 miles every two hours when log was taken. As Lowe explained, when asked about comparing engine revolutions to the log readings,

"We ring him [the engineer] up, and we see how she is doing with the revolutions, whether she is going faster or going slower; and you will find a corresponding difference in the log."

We were told that the ship was carrying 75 to 76 rpm since noontime Saturday, and carrying 75 rpm as late as 11pm Sunday night. There was no increase or decrease in engine revolutions. We were also told that the two hour advance between 8 and 10pm was about 45 miles. We were also told that from noon to the collision the ship advanced 260 miles through the water by log. If the ship was making close to 45 miles by log every two hours carrying 75 rpm, then to advance only 42 miles every two hours between noon and 6pm the revolutions must have gone down to about 70 rpm over that time period in a corresponding manner.
There is absolutely no evidence of a reduction in engine revolution. In fact all the evidence points to 75 rpm from Noon to impact.There is a suggestion by Lightoller that one engine may have been briefly running at 76 rpm. If it was then the Helmsman would have been very much aware of that.

In fact there is firm evidence to show that Titanic's engine speed was not altered between Noon April 14 and 6 pm that evening. Here it is:

"Senator SMITH.
Suppose the captain of your ship between the hours of 4 and 6 o'clock on Sunday, when you were off duty, had, because of information which had come to him from the steamship Californian, that he was in the vicinity of icebergs, ordered the ship to slow down, then would your point of figuring be accurate?
Mr. LOWE.
He ordered the ship to slow down, you say?...The junior officer that I relieved would have passed on the word to me before I relieved him, before I relieved the ship...We are informed of all. Wherever there is an altering of the course, we say, "She is doing so and so, and so and so." "All right." Then you are relieved...No. It is the White Star routine. The White Star Co. have regulations, just the same, in fact, as the Navy, and we all know exactly what to do, how to do it, when to do it, and where to do it. Everybody knows his business, and they do it. There is no hitch in anything."


That is standard procedure in all British Merchant Vessels, Sam.
In any case the ship slowed down therefore the run time between Noon and impact was 12 hours 4 minutes.
 

Jim Currie

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George,

Pitman said that when Boxhall called him it was within a few minutes of him (Pitman) being due on Watch, Pitman was due on Watch at 12-24 am April 14 time. If nothing had happened, then when Pitman went onto the bridge to start work, the time on the bridge clock would have been Midnight, not 12-24 am