How Far South did the Titanic Reach?

Jim Currie

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I'll let others be the judge of what is fact Vs. what is speculation. We all have the same copies of the transcripts.
That is exactly my point, Sam. All of the evidence should be considered, bit-by-bit, not a single item should be ignored or rejected out of hand. Where possible it should be corroborated by hard fact. There should be not be any unqualified assumptions but there is plenty of room for logic.
In the case of rebuttal, clear supporting evidence should be presented. Hearsay and romantic journalism have no place in this debate.
It has been suggested elsewhere that a clock set- back prior to impact with the iceberg is of little importance. That's true if we don't care what we publish. However, this is an Encyclopedia which should not be a place for the airing of theories ahead of a place where facts can be found. Here's a good tip all of us, myself included, who enjoy these pages should take heed of:

"Every day we have plenty of opportunities to get angry, stressed or offended. But what you're doing when you indulge these negative emotions is giving something outside yourself power over your happiness. You can choose to not let little things upset you.
Joel Osteen, Evangelist. "

 
A

Aaron_2016

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Did the Titanic pass any ships (overtake them) or possibly see eastbound ships that may have recorded her position or distance from their ship when sighted? I recall the son of Mr and Mrs Straus was on an eastbound ship at the same time the Titanic was steaming westbound. Would they see each other? Here is footage of the Queen Elizabeth passing the Queen Mary. Not sure if they are in mid-ocean but is that how close ships passed each other?

Skip to 2:10




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Nov 26, 2016
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Hello Sam,
about your post The patent log measures distance travelled through the water, not distance made good...

What conclusions can we take from this? Either the revolutions where changed, or the log was slow.
With the turning point Jim has proposed the mileage travelled over ground from noon to collision was 260 miles.
This is what the log indicated. Because of the north atlantic current, 0.4 to 0.8 knots, for 9 hours, it should have indicated
4 ... 7 miles more.
How precise can a log exspected to be? It's just a screw in the water, not a gear wheel on a tooth bar.
If it lost 7 miles of 260, that's an error of 3 percent, the best what one can exspect.
45 miles from 8 to 10. Are we sure that the log was read every two hours sharp at full hour?
May be, the one quartermaster read it 2 minutes before 8, the other 1 minute after 10, than we have 3 minutes additional
elapsed time and one mile more.
Personally I would judge the revolutions were not changed, as I can not immagine any reason for that.
The ship slowed down because of gulfstream between noon and somewhat 8 or 9 p.m.
Beeing under the influence of Labrador current, which was heading to south, the ship could speed up again.
 

Jim Currie

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Yes it is because many assumptions are being made. Case in point:

Lowe actually said that he got that speed by: "I used the speed for the position at 8 o'clock, and got it by dividing the distance from noon to the corner by the time that had elapsed from noon until the time we were at the corner." It was also Lowe who worked the course and distance from noon to the corner while he was on duty from noon till 4pm, "I worked the course from noon until what we call the 'corner'; that is, 42 north, 47 west. I really forget the course now. It is 60º 33 1/2' west - that is as near as I can remember - and 162 [126?] miles to the corner." When he spoke of the use of the log it was in response to being asked how he knew for certain that he used the right speed in getting his 8pm DR. Lowe's response was: "In what way, sir? We have the log -" He was then asked by Sen. Smith, "And inasmuch as you did not take the revolutions, I wondered whether you were strictly accurate when you defined the ship's position at 8 o'clock." Lowe then went on to talk about the unfinished slip table they were working on, and mentioned that if they had increased or decreased the speed while he was off duty (between 4 and 6pm) then he would have been informed of it.

With respect to the log and revolutions, Lowe also pointed out, "We ring him up, and we see how she is doing with the revolutions, whether she is going faster or going slower; and you will find a corresponding difference in the log." If the log registered 126 miles in 6 hours, then it would register an advance of 42 miles in two hours with the same number of revolutions. Yet we were told that the log advanced about 45 miles in two hours. That's an increase of 3 miles in two hours, or just over 7%. For that to happen, the revolutions would have to have increased from 75rpm to about 80rpm, which did not happen. The other data point in log miles came from Rowe who took the reading when the struck and said it was 260 miles. If the time was 11h and 40m, then that is an average advance of 44.6 miles every two hours, which is certainly in keeping with 75rpm. (If the actual advance between 8 and 10pm was 45.0 miles, then that would imply the revolutions over that two hour period had increased by 0.7 rpm from the 75rpm average. But my guess was that 45 miles was a rounded number to begin with.)

It would have to be a relatively strong head wind to loose a full knot in speed. Besides, the moderate wind that afternoon came over the ship's starboard quarter.
That will not do Sam. If you wish to go down the road to a satisfactory conclusion to this debate, you must resist the temptation to treat the evidence like a biased journalist or rather; the Editor of a biased newspaper.

Third Officer Lowe was giving evidence at a hearing to discover what happened during the worst peacetime maritime disaster in history. A disaster which he survived. He was doing so 8 days after the event...8 days filled with constant questions on a myriad of subjects. You cannot expect him or any normal young person to have been A1 perfect with his recollections of tasks which at the time they were performed, he had no reason to store in his memory in case they were asked for at a later date. That's nonsense.

I suggest you outright declare Lowe's evidence to be pure fantasy. However, I'll "take the bait" ... can't resist it.

If you can't trash Lowe's speed then you must accept that he did not pluck it from the air. In the evidence you quoted Lowe, he said he got 20.95 knots by dividing the distance run to the turn by 5 hours 50 minutes. If so, then the distance run was 122.2 miles when Titanic turned. However, he was not on the bridge at 5-50 pm so any speed he used must have been obtained after that time. He would only have been able to determine an average speed at or after 6 pm when he came on Watch.
Are you suggesting that Lowe mentioned the word "Log" simply to remind the good Senator that the ship was fitted with one? That's absurd, Sam. In fact, if we are to believe any of the evidence given by Lowe or his boss, Pitman, they used the log quite a bit during their Watch.

As for the sudden increase in speed:

If a ship makes 22 knots at 75 rpm under normal conditions and suddenly encounters a 1 knot head current, her speed will drop by about 1 knot. If that current is suddenly removed and at the same time all other external influences are removed, the ship's speed will increase almost immediately to the optimum for the prevailing conditions. That's what happened in the case of Titanic. That's why Boxhall used 22 knots instead of 21 knots. if he had used the Patent Log instead of rpm the outcome would have been a little different...he would have been even farther ahead with his distress DR,

A ship's speed is very sensitive to many influences. Principal of these are wind, sea & swell and current. Remove all vestiges of these suddenly and suddenly, the speed will jump up. Not only that, but suddenly, unheard vibration sounds become amplified.
The obstructions to he ship's progress disappeared with the sun. That, believe it or not, is a very common occurrence at sea.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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Take what Lee said and what Fleet said about the time of the accident.

Lee: The first thing that was reported was after seven bells struck; it was some minutes, it might have been nine or ten minutes afterwards. Three bells were struck by Fleet, warning "Right ahead," and immediately he rung the telephone up to the bridge, "Iceberg right ahead." The reply came back from the bridge, "Thank you."

Fleet: I remained in the crow's nest until I got relief...About a quarter of an hour to 20 minutes after.

From Lee we see that the berg was sighted about 10 minutes after 7 bells, not 33 or 34 minutes after. This immediately tells me that the clock had not been put back. It was 11:40 unaltered ship's time, having spent two hours in the nest.

From Fleet we see that they both remained in the nest after that for only about 20 minutes when Evans and Hogg showed up to relieve them. That would make it 12:00 unaltered time.

How did Evans and Hogg know when to go up the nest? We find out from Hogg that he had to ask Evans what time it was shortly after they were awakened by the accident. Like almost everyone else in forecastle, they went out on deck and saw ice and then went back below. A clock keeping ship's time was available to them in the seamen's mess room. According to Hogg: "I asked the time, then, of my mate Evans, and he said, 'It is a quarter to 12. We will get dressed and get ready to go on the lookout'. I dressed myself, and we relieved the lookout at 12 o'clock, me and my mate Evans." As we learned from Bosun's mate Haines, the clock had not been put back yet when the ship struck at 11:40. Just looking at the clock it appeared they were due on watch in about 15 minutes time soon after the accident happened. Nobody appears to have asked if the clock had been put back or not. They went up the nest just as the clock was approaching 12:00. Once up there, 8 bells were struck as usual, and they stayed up there for about 20 minutes before attempting to call down to the bridge upon seeing people running about with belts on. When Hogg comes down from the nest and goes to the boat deck he is ordered to go back to the forecastle head and bring back a Jacobs ladder, which he does. Then he is ordered by Murdoch to see that the plug is in the boat, No. 7, and then told to get in and go away with the boat. No. 7 was the first boat lowered.
 

Jim Currie

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Hello Sam,
about your post The patent log measures distance travelled through the water, not distance made good...

What conclusions can we take from this? Either the revolutions where changed, or the log was slow.
With the turning point Jim has proposed the mileage travelled over ground from noon to collision was 260 miles.
This is what the log indicated. Because of the north atlantic current, 0.4 to 0.8 knots, for 9 hours, it should have indicated
4 ... 7 miles more.
How precise can a log exspected to be? It's just a screw in the water, not a gear wheel on a tooth bar.
If it lost 7 miles of 260, that's an error of 3 percent, the best what one can exspect.
45 miles from 8 to 10. Are we sure that the log was read every two hours sharp at full hour?
May be, the one quartermaster read it 2 minutes before 8, the other 1 minute after 10, than we have 3 minutes additional
elapsed time and one mile more.
Personally I would judge the revolutions were not changed, as I can not immagine any reason for that.
The ship slowed down because of gulfstream between noon and somewhat 8 or 9 p.m.
Beeing under the influence of Labrador current, which was heading to south, the ship could speed up again.
Hello Marcus,

The Cherub Patent Log as fitted to Titanic was actually a very accurate little instrument It was equipped with non kinking trailing rope and an external governor wheel. As you point out, it indicated a distance of 260 nautical miles at impact. Since we know where Titanic was at Noon and where she is now, we can deduce that the log supplied to Titanic was extremely reliable. You are correct in pointing out the variations in time keeping. A minute on a ship making 22.5 knots equates to a distance of 2280 feet 0.375 of a nautical mile or in the case if Titanic, 2.8 ship lengths.

There is no evidence to show that the Labrador Current was anywhere near Titanic that night. In reality, if she was able to make 22 knots at 76 rpm under normal conditions of wind, sea and swell, then in perfect conditions..i.e. new engines, clean bottom and the absence of wind, sea or swell, she would have reached her optimum speed; which in this case was 22.5 knots. You will remember that Boxhall thought that she would make 21.5 knots under ordinary conditions but 22 knots in the conditions experienced after dusk that night.
 

Scott Mills

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I think it is clear that Titanic resumed making way after the collision. We can quibble about the time she was underway after the collision (as many of you know I err on the side if 10+ minutes), but the fact is, she resumed making way. So for me the question involves knowing for how long that was or making inferences to try and discover for how long that way. Then you'll have your answer.

As for the actual course she steam after the collision, I suspect that many of the officers did not tell the whole truth in their testimony (and you really have no good reason to think they did), which complicates everything; however, at a minimum we know she did make way for some indeterminate amount of time after the collision. We also know that some sort of evasive maneuver was undertaken to avoid Titanic's collision with ice.

Leaving aside my thoughts (I've no desire to complicate the discussion)... if as most believe, Titanic steamed slow ahead as part of a damage assessment before anyone believed her to be fatally damaged, then it is easy for me (as a non-mariner) to assume that any head way after the collision would have been in a straight line from where the ship initially came to rest. Now I assume that whatever was done to avoid colliding with the ice could have very easily resulted in an alteration of the heading the ship was traveling on; ergo, you would have a non-planned course change resulting in a heading Titanic traveled along for a minimum of 5 minutes.
 

Jim Currie

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No lads, that is not 'exactly right'. The Patent Log does not measure speed through the water, it measures the distance that the vessel has traveled through the water between two readings. To find the indicated speed through the water you simply divide the indicated distance by the lapsed time.
 
Nov 26, 2016
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As we learned from Bosun's mate Haines, the clock had not been put back yet when the ship struck at 11:40. Just looking at the clock it appeared they were due on watch in about 15 minutes time soon after the accident happened. Nobody appears to have asked if the clock had been put back or not. They went up the nest just as the clock was approaching 12:00. Once up there, 8 bells were struck as usual, and they stayed up there for about 20 minutes before attempting to call down to the bridge upon seeing people running about with belts on.
Interesting point. That means deviating from normal routine 8 bells were struck at 12:00 unaltered time.

This will put Symon's appearance at the boat deck on 12:00 unaltered time iso 12:23 as I assumed in previous post:
11418. Before you go on telling us what happened then, can you give us any idea what time it was when you noticed this water reaching nearly to the coamings of the hatch? - I should think, roughly estimating it, it would be about five minutes to twelve, because, as I was on my way to the deck, so they struck eight bells in the crow's-nest.

Furthermore I found they must have had a watch in the crow's nest, as they had to strike the bells:
Mr. HOGG. No, sir; we struck a bell. We never used the phone, only in going into harbors, or into ports, or in the case of anything serious.
Senator PERKINS. And you struck the bell every half hour?
Mr. HOGG. Yes. And for reporting ships you struck one, port; two, starboard; and three, right ahead.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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There should be not be any unqualified assumptions but there is plenty of room for logic
And here is where things differ, in the assumptions made and the logic used to support those assumptions.
The facts are simple enough:
We all seem to agree,
1. The vessel travelled 1549 miles by noon on the 14th since departing Queenstown.
2. The ship ran 260 miles by log from noon to the time of collision.
3. The ship ran about 45 miles between 8 and 10pm earlier that night.
4. The ship sank at 41° 43.5'N,49° 56.8'W.
5. The CQD positions of Boxhall and Capt. Smith were both too far west of the wreck site, the first about 13 miles and the second about 20 miles.
All else is the application of assumption and logic based on what survivors reported.
 

Jim Currie

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[QUOTE="Markus Philipp,

Hello Markus.

Sam does not believe that the clocks were partly set back before impact. If they were not, then neither 1 bell nor 8 bells would ever have been sounded again on Titanic... no one could possibly have heard them. The sure fire proof of a clock set back before impact was the sounding of those bells. If you believe they were heard after impact, you cannot agree with Sam.
8 bells were and still are, only sounded when the full amount of a Watch has been served. By the same token. 1 bell is only sounded twice during a full Watch. The first time after the first half hour of the Watch which is of no importance to a Watch-keeper and 15 minutes before the proper time for the change of Watch. The latter being in many cases the only, accurate, official indication of Watch time.

We know they did not have a means of telling the time in the Crow's Nest but the bridge sounded the time bells every half hour. During the hours of darkness in the old days, the Lookout in the Crow's Nest or right forward at the bow would copy the bells sounded by the bridge and thereafter yell words similar to "All's well... lights are shining brightly". However, in passenger ships, they very often dispensed with the ringing if the bells after 10 pm when the passengers were sound asleep. Imagine the sounding of 2 x 5 bells, 2 x 6 bells, 2 x 7 bells and OMG! 2 x 8 bells when you are trying to sleep with your cabin porthole open.

As for QM Rowe: one of his tasks was to read the patent log at 10 pm that evening and at adjusted Midnight and report the readings to the bridge.
Rowe would have had unadjusted time up tor 10 pm and would most certainly require to have adjusted time at Midnight. Therefore at the stroke of 4 bells, 10 pm, he would read the Patent Log then retard his watch 24 minutes so that he would known exactly when the next reading was due at Midnight, the end of the 8 to 12 Watch which was 4 hours 24 minutes long and the end of the Log Book day of April 14. Therefore, when he said the ship hit the iceberg at 11-40 pm, that time was actually 12 hours and 4 minutes from Noon that day, not 11 hours and 40 minutes from Noon.
When QM Rowe saw that lifeboat at 12-25 am, it was 45 minutes after impact. This dove-tails neatly with the evidence of Pitman who said he got to lifeboat No.5 at about 12-20 am. At that time. No. 7 boat was in the process of being launched. That was 40 minutes after impact...12-20 am adjusted time...40 minutes after Rowe read the Patent Log.
Rowe also said that at that time, he was ordered to bring a box of Detonators from the poop. This suggests that the detonators for the socket distress signals were stored separately from the main projectiles. These detonators were supplied separately. The following from the Patent of the makers seems to prove this:

"The detonator to be used in conjunction with such exploding or sounding charges that are propelled by means of gunpowder We form of a tube of copper, filled half-way up with the usual detonating composition, and the other half of the tube we fill with fuse-powder, so as to make the detonator itself a time-fuse....Fig. 2 shows the detonator. It is made of a copper shell filled about half-way with a composition of fulminate of mercury, m, and completed by a charge of meal-powder...."

The "usual detonating composition" was fulminate of mercury, a highly unstable explosive material.

In his evidence, Rowe stated:

"I telephoned to the fore bridge to know if they knew there was a boat lowered.They replied, asking me if I was the third officer. I replied, "No; I am the quartermaster." They told me to bring over detonators, which are used in firing distress signals."

Many in these pages think Boxhall was firing signals before Rowe advised him of the first lifeboat launch, his evidence indicates that he was not. In fact, he could not do so until he received the means for doing so..the detonators which seem to have been stored in a locked cabinet as far away from any place they might do harm if the accidentally ignited. In my day we had a Gun Room to store them in.

Boxhall stated :

"3795. At the time you were clearing them; at the time they were lowered - the first ones were lowered? A: - I do not know what time the first boat was lowered.... I was around the bridge, but the first boat that was lowered was lowered away from aft...- On the starboard side. I received the communication though the telephone in the wheelhouse that the first boat had been lowered. I did not notice the time...
3807. What did you do after receiving that communication?...A: - I went outside again and was assisting generally... I went on the port side."

If Rowe had adjusted time and received the detonator order at 12-25 am, then the first rocket could not have been fired before he and his mate reached the bridge with the detonators. This must also have been near to the time when Boxhall had been to the Wireless Room with the revised distress position. Why else would he have been in the wheelhouse to answer the phone when everyone else was out on deck, helping with the boats?

Forget about Lightoller's 1 hour 33 minute difference between ship time and EST New York. It was actually 1 hour and 38 minutes. Before the partial clock set back it was, by all round agreement , 2 hours and 2 minutes. After the 24 minute set back, it was 1 hour 38 minutes. With this in mind, and the delivery of the detonators to the bridge, reconsider Californian's rocket sightings.

If we accept the evidence of Californian's wireless operator that clocks were 1 hour 55 minutes FAST of EST New York. this means that the fisrt rocket was seen by her Second Officer at 10-50 EST. The time on a partially adjusted clock on Titanic would then have been 00-38 am...13 minutes after the order to bring the detonators was given.
If we accept the evidence of Californian's master, Captain Lord, that the clocks were 1 hour 50 minutes FAST of EST, New York, then the fist distress signal from Titanic was seen from Californian when the time on the sinking ship was 12-33 am.
It therefore took QM Rowe and his mate a little under 13 minutes or 8 minutes to unlock the detonator cabinet and bring the contents to the bridge.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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Stand corrected. The Patent Log measures the distance that the vessel has traveled through the water between two readings. That distance is not the same as the distance made good, which is the point being made here.
 

Jim Currie

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And here is where things differ, in the assumptions made and the logic used to support those assumptions.
The facts are simple enough:
We all seem to agree,
1. The vessel travelled 1549 miles by noon on the 14th since departing Queenstown.
2. The ship ran 260 miles by log from noon to the time of collision.
3. The ship ran about 45 miles between 8 and 10pm earlier that night.
4. The ship sank at 41° 43.5'N,49° 56.8'W.
5. The CQD positions of Boxhall and Capt. Smith were both too far west of the wreck site, the first about 13 miles and the second about 20 miles.
All else is the application of assumption and logic based on what survivors reported.
The sources of the information in your list from 1 to 5 is entirely based on what survivors However, it is not complete. My list looks like the following. I have included sources.

1. The vessel travelled 1549 miles by noon on the 14th since departing Queenstown. (Pitman)
2. The vessel slowed down to 20.95 knots for a period between Noon April 14 and 8 pm April 14. (Lowe)
3. The vessel increased her speed to 22 knots after 7-30 pm sights. (Boxhall)
4. The ship ran 260 miles by log from noon to the time of collision. (QM Rowe)
5. The ship ran about 45 miles between 8 and 10pm earlier that night.(QM Hichens)
6. The CQD positions of Boxhall and Capt. Smith were both too far west of the wreck site, the first about 13 miles and the second about 20 miles. (Boxhall and PV Mount Temple).
7. No. 4. The ship sank at 41° 43.5'N,49° 56.8'W." (Discovery of the wreck site).


Evidence verification:

5th Officer Lowe clearly stated the following in his evidence:

"Senator SMITH.:.. before you could obtain this position, did you first have to ascertain the speed of the ship?
Mr. LOWE: You are speaking of the 8 o'clock position, sir?
Senator SMITH: Yes.
Mr. LOWE: Her speed from noon until we turned the corner was just a fraction under 21 knots.
Senator SMITH: And you are able to say that the speed at that time was 21 knots?
Mr. LOWE: Twenty-one knots or under; it was really 20.95, about. If the speed had been increased or reduced during the interval when I was off duty, I would have been informed of it."

Lowe was was asked the ship's speed and he gave it, therefore it is sworn evidence of ship speed that has to be given proper consideration in exactly the same way as any other sworn evidence.
By the same token, Boxhall was asked what speed he used to calculate his DR distress position. Like Lowe, he gave a speed and qualified his choice because he thought the prevailing conditions would reduce slip, and said so. That too has to be subjected to close scrutiny.

" taking into consideration that it was smooth water and that there ought to have been a minimum of slip, I allowed 22 knots."
 

Jim Currie

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It is indeed. However we have two fixed points which do give us a minimum possible distance made good. We have to take a little licence but if we use 124 miles to The Corner and 131.7 miles from there to the impact position at say 49-56 West. 41.47'North, we get a minimum possible distance of 255.7 miles.
If we use 126 miles Noon to the Corner, we get a minimum distance between fixed points of 257.7 miles. The patent Log read 260 miles. Looks to me that the Log was pretty accurate.
 
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The problem for me is that testimony contradicts the evidence in many details here.
Boxhall states he allowed 22 knots when he worked up his distress position. However, his distress position requires a speed of almost 25 knots from The Corner if my math is right (approx. 144.6 miles from The Corner / 5h50m run time) It also requires the ship to run much further over the ground than the patent log had registered through the water. Smith's is even more ridiculous. I hadn't investigated this topic very much previously, but I'm a little baffled that nobody caught this mistake back then. The data available in 1912 gets you pretty close to the actual wreck location if you don't screw up while doing the math.

It's the same with the slow down before turning the corner. Any speed or distance you lose before turning the corner has to be made up in order to get Titanic to the wreck site. Granted that it's a small fraction if the distance is only some 4-5 miles to be made up.

In any case, the testimony and the numbers don't add up to me, and I don't yet have a theory to explain the discrepancy.
 
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Hello Jim, some questions,
about the bells
I am wondering whether the bells were struck on the bridge or in the crow's nest.
Mr. HOGG. No, sir; we struck a bell. We never used the phone, only in going into harbors, or into ports, or in the case of anything serious. Senator PERKINS. And you struck the bell every half hour?
Mr. HOGG. Yes. And for reporting ships you struck one, port; two, starboard; and three, right ahead.


How do we know that they did not strike the bell? If 8 bells were not struck, what did Symon hear then?
11418. Before you go on telling us what happened then, can you give us any idea what time it was when you noticed this water reaching nearly to the coamings of the hatch? - I should think, roughly estimating it,
it would be about five minutes to twelve, because, as I was on my way to the deck, so they struck eight bells in the crow's-nest.


May be he could not tell whether the bells sounded from the crow's nest or from the bridge, but he heared 8 bells. If the clock was not set back we must not imperatively follow that 8 bells were not struck. Hichens was relieved at 12.23, Rowe was waiting until 12.25. Why should'nt the standby quartermaster be able to strike 8 bells at 12.23?

You quoted in post #230 from Fleet:
17318. Then did you remain on the crow's-nest? A: - Yes.
17319. Until eight bells? A: - Till eight bells went.
17320. At eight bells, in the ordinary course, you were relieved? A: - Yes.

"Till eight bells went" - I should say, these bells sounded from the bridge.

About the rockets
there is a very good article in this board, Titanic's Rockets by Senan Molony.
Titanic's Rockets
For my understanding he explains very well that Boxhall had detonators at hand before he got the phone call from Rowe. I quote from the article:
Now we shall see that Boxhall was already busy with rockets on his own when he unexpectedly got the opportunity to call up assistance. His evidence specifically states that he had sent up rocketry when he got the sudden chance to order that even more rockets be brought up from the stern of the ship.
Boxhall 15593. - I knew one of the boats had gone away, because I happened to be putting the firing lanyard
inside the well-house after sending off a rocket, and the telephone bell rang. Somebody telephoned to say that one of the starboard boats had left the ship, and I was rather surprised.

About Rowe, you wrote:
Therefore at the stroke of 4 bells, 10 pm, he would read the Patent Log then retard his watch
24 minutes so that he would known exactly when the next reading was due at Midnight,
the end of the 8 to 12 Watch which was 4 hours 24 minutes long and the end of the Log Book day of April 14.
Therefore, when he said the ship hit the iceberg at 11-40 pm, that time was actually 12 hours and 4 minutes
from Noon that day, not 11 hours and 40 minutes from Noon.

Sorry, but I do not feel well about this. Rowe's watch ended at 12.00 adjusted time.
Do you think he was waiting another 25 minutes beyond the end of his watch? After 4 h 23 beeing on watch?
 
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Aaron_2016

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I think Boxhall gave the wrong position because he assumed the ship was still facing west during the evacuation. He was unaware she had turned north and continued to steam slow ahead for some time. However his CQD position is still further north and west of the actual wreck site where the Titanic sank. Tracking the ship's course backwards it seems to me the Titanic was much further south before she met the iceberg and then she turned north and steamed up to the spot where she sank. Does anyone know how far south she might have been before she turned north and why Boxhall was unaware the ship had previously changed course and had moved further south before the collision?




mapposition.PNG



The officers and the lookouts were keeping a close watch for any ice. I think an officer must have popped in and asked Jack Phillips to listen for any more ice reports and to let them know at once. The Californian alerted the Titanic twice before the collision. Evans - The wireless operator on the Californian - was confident that Phillips had received his last message. I wonder if Phillips sent it to the bridge and as a direct result they immediately changed course and moved further south just before the collision. Harold Bride said "Phillips had finished working with Cape Race 10 minutes before the collision with the iceberg. He made mention of the fact when I turned out." So he might have informed the bridge before the collision that the Californian had stopped and was surrounded by ice.

Bride also told the Inquiry:



"I had a glance at the log for that evening as I was writing it up at the time of the disaster. But I can not recollect any communication with the Californian having been noted down."
Q - The Californian's log shows, that they sent that message to the Titanic at 11.15 ship's time, or 10 o'clock New York time.
A - I may have overlooked it.
Q - If you had heard such a message as that you would have regarded it as important, would you not?
A - I should have taken it myself; yes, sir. - (Take it immediately to the bridge?)


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If Rowe had adjusted time and received the detonator order at 12-25 am, then the first rocket could not have been fired before he and his mate reached the bridge with the detonators. This must also have been near to the time when Boxhall had been to the Wireless Room with the revised distress position. Why else would he have been in the wheelhouse to answer the phone when everyone else was out on deck, helping with the boats?
As Markus pointed out, the reason Boxhall was in the wheel house when the call from Rowe came in was that he just fired off a distress rocket. Rowe was also asked about the location of these devices:

Senator BURTON. Were there any detonators or other signals kept aft?
Mr. ROWE. The detonators, such as the distress signal rockets, green lights, and blue lights..
Senator BURTON. Were there any kept forward?
Mr. ROWE. Yes; on the fore bridge.
Senator BURTON. On the after bridge, too?
Mr. ROWE. Not on the after bridge. There was a private locker aft.

The distress signal were referred to as detonators because they detonated with a laud report and threw out stars when they reached a height of about 600 feet. They were propelled upward by a charge located in the base of the signal. It was a single unit, not separate components. When fired, two reports were heard. The first, when the base charge fired propelling the rest of detonating charge upward; and the second, when the explosive charge burst at altitude, which was set off by the timed fuse. A full description of these signals can be found here: http://www.titanicology.com/Californian/WhatColorWereThey.pdf.

As far as lookouts and bells, the IMM Company rules (No. 254) required that ship's bells be struck every 1/2 hour [there were no exceptions to this listed] and answer by the lookouts, and at night to report that the lights are burning brightly when doing so. It was also a requirement that lookout men report to the OOW on the bridge when relieved, and the name(s) of the relief given and entered into the log book.

As far as Rowe, he knew full well that the clock was to go back near midnight by about 23 minutes, and lacking any other information, I believe he would have set his timepiece back by that amount at that time. Thereafter, he would be on altered time expecting to be relieved when his watch showed midnight again. All events described by him suggest that is what he did.

By the way, in a letter he wrote to Ed Kamuda of the THS in 1963, Rowe said: "At about 11:40 I was walking from starboard to port and on turning round on the port side she gave rather an odd motion which was similar to going alongside a quay a bit heavy. I looked forward and was amazed to see what I thought to be a sailing vessel it was the colour as wet canvas and I said to myself, my - we've struck a windjammer but as we passed it we were so close I saw it was an iceberg and the engines started in reverse and the vibration on the poop was something terrific, I went across to the port side and pulled in the log in case it fouled the propeller, and then all was still. My watch should have ended at 12:22 but time went by and no relief turned up."

In a another letter he wrote in 1968, Rowe said: "By the time I arrived on the bridge, there was seven rockets fired but I did not determine how many was left as you can guess it was a bit dark at the time but you can take it for granted that 7 was fired."