How Far South did the Titanic Reach?

Jim Currie

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To Jim:

3. "Pitman said that when Boxhall called him it was within a few minutes of him (Pitman) being due on Watch, Pitman was due on Watch at 12-24 am April 14 time. If nothing had happened, then when Pitman went onto the bridge to start work, the time on the bridge clock would have been Midnight, not 12-24 am"

Sorry, JIm, but I'm not sure of what point you're trying to make?

Simply that Pitman would never have made that observation if Boxhall had called him early or late. His remark is proof-positive that a partial clock chnage had taken place before he was called.
 
Mar 18, 2008
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There is plenty of evidence in Boxhall's testimony, Hichens testimony, the ordinary conduct of White Star ships, and the iron on the bottom to show that Titanic did, in fact, alter course at least once after turning the corner.
Then sure you can exactly point us out where Boxhall and Hichens said that!
Or is it again one of these claims like that Boxhall was by his own words on the stairs on B Deck when he saw the iceberg or that Captain Smith never told him to look for the carpenter and several other claims you have made up?!
 
Mar 22, 2003
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Let's not confuse what is said by someone in evidence as fact. In my list in post #360, I listed No. 1, 2 and 3 as facts. Perhaps I should have said that they are believed to be true, not fact, for the following reasons:

1. The vessel travelled 1549 miles by noon on the 14th since departing Queenstown.
I believe the distances traveled per day listed in the Pitman memo are correct only because there are other sources that confirm the mileage runs for all three days. Confirmation of the run for Day-1 of 484 miles comes from testimony of J. Bruce Ismay. Confirmation of the run for Day-2 of 519 miles comes from Ismay and 2nd class passenger Lawrence Beesely. (In his book, The Loss of the SS Titanic, Beesley wrote that the purser had mentioned to him that the 519 mile run for that day was a disappointment.) Confirmation of the run for Day-3 of 546 miles comes from Ismay, and passengers Lawrence Beesley, Henry Stengel and Archibald Gracie.

2. The ship ran 260 miles by log from noon to the time of collision.
3. The ship ran about 45 miles between 8 and 10pm earlier that night.
I accept the log advance readings given by QMs Rowe and Hichens to be factual, realizing that they were rounded to the nearest mile. The two are fully consistent with the ship maintaining the same speed through the water from noontime Saturday, and the supporting evidence for that is testimony from several sources (Barrett, Hendrickson, Scott, Ismay, among others) that the ship was maintaining between 75-76 rpm all that time. From Olympic data provided by Edward Wilding, and accounting for the change in pitch of Titanic's propellers compared to Olympic's (from H&W supplied data), a model of Speed Vs. RPM indicates speeds through the water of 22.15 to 22.40 knots when carrying 75 to 76 rpm, respectively. The speed-made-good from LAN Saturday to LAN Sunday works out to 22.06 knots (by dividing 546 miles by 24h 45m, the time from LAN Sat to LAN Sun). This is about 0.2 knots slower than the average speed through the water based on the model.

The only true facts are:
4. The ship sank at 41° 43.5'N,49° 56.8'W.
5. The CQD positions attributed to 4/O Boxhall and Capt. Smith were both too far west of the wreck site, the first about 13 miles and the second about 20 miles.
The location of the wreck is a hard fact since its discovery in 1985. The coordinates are taken at the center of the boiler field. The two CQD coordinates are also fact since they were received and logged by multiple wireless stations. How they came about, however, is open to speculation.

Now what about other so called facts?

What is a fact is that 5/O Lowe said he used a speed of 20.95 knots to calculate the 8pm DR. He said he got that by taking the distance from noon to the corner and dividing it by the time from noon to the corner. That is what he said. But that does not mean that his speed of 20.95 knots was the actual speed of the ship during that time period. Lowe's speed calculation is easily obtained by dividing 125.7 miles by 6 hours, the interval of time that he happened to mention to Sen. Smith; not necessarily the interval from noon to when the ship turned. For the record, Lowe never said what time the ship actually turned the corner. There are only three people I believe that gave the time of the turn, Boxhall and Pitman, who both said 5:50pm, and QM Rowe, who mentioned 5:45pm.

A distance to the corner (rounded to the nearest mile) of 126 miles checks nicely with the 1549 miles run from Queenstown to noon of the 14th making the total run from Queenstown to the corner of 1675 miles. Comparing to data from previous voyages of Olympic over same route of travel, the 1675 miles for Titanic falls right in the range of 1674 to1677 for Olympic, and agrees perfectly with Olympic’s voyage No. 8 in Feb 1912 over that same route. Nowhere did Lowe say that he took the distance by log to get his 21 knots. The log only came up when he was challenged as to how accurate his speed was if he didn't use engine revolutions to get his speed for the 8pm DR workup. That was when he was asked if there were other means to get at the ship’s speed. The problem that I have with the assumption being made that he took the distance by log at 6pm to get his speed of 21 knots is that a run of 126 miles in 6 hours gives an average two-hour run by log of only 42 miles. Even if the ship’s speed made good had slowed somewhat because of a head current, the log would still show a distance through the water based on how fast the spinner was being pulled through the water by the ship, not how fast the body of water on the surface was moving relative to the sea bottom. For the revolutions carried, this two-hour distance through the water would have registered an advance between about 44.3 to 44.8 miles on the log, which is consistent with the observation of 45 miles between 8 and 10pm by QM Hichens. The wind and sea state as reported, moderate out of the north with moderate seas, would not have produced much of an adverse affect on the log mileage.

3/O Herbert Pitman was on duty the same times that Lowe was on duty. Yet Pitman gave evidence that the ship made about 21.5 knots all day Sunday and Sunday evening, and that it was the same speed that the ship made over the previous 24 hours. Pitman's testimony also happened to conflict with data that he himself supplied in a written memo that showed a speed of 22.1 knots over the previous 24-hour period, 0.6 knots greater than what he said it was. (He got 22.1 knots in his memo by dividing 546 miles by 24h 44m.)

Joseph Boxhall said he used a speed of 22 knots in his distress position workup. It has been quoted here that he said he assumed that speed because he noted that the sea was smooth and he assumed a minimum of slip, there he had to know that the speed was less than that before 7:30pm stars. The fact is that Boxhall never said anything about how fast he thought the ship was going prior to 7:30pm stars. In fact, he said he never depended on the patent log for the speed and gave consideration only to the revolutions being carried that was reported every 4 hours. Boxhall also said that during the previous watch, he considered the ship was away to the southward and westward of 42N, 47W when the course was altered at 5:50pm. He was unwilling to quantify how far away, only that it was enough that he had mentioned something to C/O Wilde between 4 and 6pm. To me, I cannot see how the ship could have gone beyond the corner if he assumed that the speed was less than 22 knots prior to the time of the turn.

A few more facts about what Boxhall said. Regarding his calculation of the distress position, he said he started from the 7:30pm celestial fix and took a course S86W true at 22 knots to 11:46pm. The course of S86W true was obtained after he took star bearings to check the compass deviation error. Lightoller also said that course reported to him was S86W true. Boxhall also testified at the Ryan trial in June 1913 where he said that at the time he went off watch at 6pm “there was little wind and the sea was smooth.” This seems to be consistent with lookout Jewell’s testimony that the wind was already dying down as the sun was going down. (Sunset in the region would have occurred at 6:50pm ship’s time near 42° 00’N, 47° 30’W.) Boxhall’s other testimony at the Ryan trial was fully consistent with what he said the year before in 1912.

From the testimony of both Lightoller and Boxhall it appears that they believed that the difference between ship’s time and GMT was 3h 27m at the times of collision and foundering. Ship’s time at the time of foundering, from both Pitman and Boxhall, was said to be 2:20am. From the testimony of QM Hichens we were told that the expected clock change that night was to be 23 minutes in one watch and 24 minutes in the other watch for a total adjustment of 47 minutes.

That's pretty much the information we have to work from.
 

Jim Currie

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If the distance made good and the distance registered by the log are nearly identical, the conclusion must be there was no considerable current at any time, neither before nor after 6 pm. To come back to my original point, the insinuated conclusion of Captain Smith below is not possible: By 4 pm, Captain Smith would see from the Log Book that instead of covering a distance of 86.4 miles as he estimated she would have done by that time, the ship had only covered a distance of 84 miles. In fact, he found that the current was 0.6 knots stronger than he anticipated. i.e. 1.1 knots instead of 0.5 knots.
No Markus. Current does not significantly effect the Patent Log.

Perhaps I did not make myself clear.

Captain Smith was in a new ship. the performance of which was, at that time a mystery to him. Like his officers, his only reference was the Olympic and he and they knew that at 74 rpm, Olympic would make 21.5 knots.
He knew that Titanic had averaged 22.1 knots during the previous day's run when the engine rpm had been increased for the first time to 74 rpm. Although he and the owner would have been delighted with that performance, he would not assume she would make the same speed over that next day's run. Consequently, on the basis of "One swallow doth not a summer-make", he would exercise caution as would any experienced master have done, and fell back on his experience. At least until he had better data. However, the fact that he decided to retard the clocks for 47 minutes between Noon April 14 and Noon April 15, tells us that although he did not plan a speed run during that time, he was optimistic that Titanic might just match her previous days run.

Keeping the forgoing in mind, it is my opinion that Captain Smith erred on the cautious in his calculation of the ETA The Corner. Based on his Olympic experience, he estimated her speed between Noon and The Corner would be 21.5 knots. Therefore, when he had the Patent Log reading for 4 pm and saw that it was 84 miles instead of the expected 86.4 miles, he estimated that there was a half knot current against him. I believe that Titanic was perfectly able to achieve 22 knots without any current and in fact, the Patent Log should have read 88 miles at 4 pm. Thus, the true strength of the current was close to 88 minus 84 divided by 4 = 1 knot. This is born out by Boxhall's idea when he stated :

"Q15645: (The Solicitor-General.) I will ask him, My Lord. (To the witness.) Why did you take 22 knots? A: - I thought the ship was doing 22 knots.
Q15646: Was it an estimate you formed on any materials as to revolutions or as to the patent log? A: - No, I never depend on the patent log at all. It was an estimate that I had arrived at from the revolutions, although I had had no revolutions that watch; but, taking into consideration that it was smooth water and that there ought to have been a minimum of slip, I allowed 22 knots."

Keep in mind that Boxhall also believed Titanic was also making 21.5 knots on 75 rpm. That Boxhall used 22 knots because of the improvement in the weather is overwhelming proof that he thought she was doing less than 22 knots before it improved. Not only that, but when he worked the 7-30 pm sights, he would have had confirmation of the distance run in say 7 hours 30 minutes. If that distance had been 165 miles in the prevailing conditions then he would surely have used a higher speed to calculate his distress position?
By the way, it has been suggested that 5th officer Lowe's distance of 162 miles from Noon to The Corner was a typing error. Perhaps Lowe was remembering the calculated distance run indicated by the patent Log at sights? i.e. 162 miles. That would give an average speed from Noon of 21.6 knots. A coincidence?
 

Dave Gittins

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The story was explained at the US inquiry. Melville Stone of Associated Press gave evidence. To quote myself--

"Stone was able to explain one of the most misleading of the mysterious radio messages. During Monday 15 April, John Phillips’s father, in Godalming, England, had received a reassuring telegram. It read, ‘Making slowly for Halifax. Practically unsinkable. Don't worry.' [Author's punctuation]. Stone explained its true origin. ‘This was supposed, for an hour or more, to have come direct from Phillips, the Titanic operator. Instead of that it came from an uncle of Phillips, who lived in England, and was the docket which he fixed up in London and which he was sending to Phillips’s father to comfort him.’"
 
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Mar 22, 2003
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No Markus. Current does not significantly effect the Patent Log.
But you are not being consistent with that definitive statement when you then say, "when he [Capt. Smith] had the Patent Log reading for 4 pm and saw that it was 84 miles instead of the expected 86.4 miles, he estimated that there was a half knot current against him." The log wouldn't show current.

Let me also point out that there is zero evidence of Capt. Smith seeing a 4pm log reading of 84 miles or expecting to see 86.4 miles. The only log readings we were told about is the advance of 45 miles in the log between 8 and 10pm Sunday, and the 260 miles from noon to the time of collision. PERIOD.

and he and they knew that at 74 rpm, Olympic would make 21.5 knots.

He knew that Titanic had averaged 22.1 knots during the previous day's run when the engine rpm had been increased for the first time to 74 rpm.
Not 74 rpm. We were told by Barrett that the number of revolutions carried averaged 75 rpm since noontime Saturday. An increase to 75 rpm was also confirmed by Ismay. In fact, if leading fireman Hendrickson was right, when he came on duty in the stokehold at 4pm Sunday afternoon, he was told by an engineer that the ship had made 76 rpm in the previous watch. That would be from noon to 4pm Sunday. The last number concerning revolutions carried that I could find came from greaser Scott who stated that Titanic was making 75 rpm at 11pm. The 21.5 knots at 74 rpm that you referred to came from Wilding, and that was for Olympic. At 75 rpm, Olympic would run about 21.8 knots. The pitch of Titanic's wing propellers were set higher than that of Olympic by 1.45% which would ideally would produce about almost 1/3 knot higher speed when carrying 75 rpm. (Ismay was told to expect about 1/4 knot better performance.)
 
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Aaron_2016

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The ship had a list to port on Sunday afternoon. If this had continued up to the collision could the port list force the ship off course as the rudder would be slightly tilted? If Hichens had kept the wheel straight would the action of the tilted rudder still take the ship further south? Would they have any idea they were moving off course?

My understanding is that the lookouts both saw the haze / ice field in front of the ship. Fleet said it was "about 2 points on each side" and while he was waiting at the phone with his back to the iceberg trying to get a reply (he told Peuchen there was no reply) he was told by Lee that the ship was turning to port. Was Lee observing the course change just prior to the collision? Whether it was haze or ice I think if I was Murdoch and I saw it "about 2 points on each side" I would have taken a precautionary measure and turned the ship 2 points to port where it was clear. Hichens said the ship had successfully turned 2 points to port before she struck. Was it a simple course change and not an emergency order? The Californian saw the Titanic move "more to the south and west". Were they observing her course change? They saw her a significant time before the collision, and if they could see her, then perhaps Murdoch was observing them and trying to determine if they had stopped on account of the ice. Phillips had finished with Cape Race (according to Bride 10 minutes before the collision). Perhaps Murdoch asked Moody to check the wireless room and see what that ship was. Phillips would tell him the closest ship he heard was the Californian and she was stopped and currently surrounded by ice. Moody informs Murdoch and he now strongly believes the vessel he can see might be the Californian. Murdoch prepares to change course and when he sees the haze / ice field "about 2 points on each side" he immediately orders the ship to turn. According to Joseph Scarrot the bell rang and then "five or eight minutes" later he felt the collision. During that lengthy time the ship would turn slowly to port with a gentle swing (why scare the passengers) to move away from the haze / ice on the horizon. The ship turns slowly 2 points to port until the path ahead is clear. The Californian observes her moving "more to the south and west". Without knowing the Titanic is steering directly into the path of the iceberg, brushing against it on her starboard side.


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Jim Currie

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Exactly. He was going by the clock in the mess room.
Fleet and Lee stated that their watch was nearly over when the impact came, that they were to do extra time and that they served the fullness of their Watch and were relived 20 minutes after impact. They clearly said so in the evidence.
Started to get ready for Watch at 1 bell and relieved Fleet an Lee. The former lifted the back cover and saw the passengers gathering on the boat deck.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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None of the above. After the ship struck the iceberg, exactly where Boxhall said it did, the ship's engines were restarted and it was turned around to head back to Harland & Wolff's, just like Phillips told Bride. It only got as far as 13 miles when the flooding forced them to stop the ship again. And that is where she sank. The reason Boxhall did not change the CQD position is that he was away looking for damage, and nobody told him that they were headed back after he returned. My proof is the position of the wreck site relative to Boxhall's CQD position. Those positions are hard, cold facts, not suppositions or beliefs.
 
Mar 18, 2008
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Now that makes perfect sense! The clocks had been put back before the collision (steaming west to New York) but after the collision when steaming east back to Belfast they had to put them forward again!
 
Mar 22, 2003
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There is an hour and fifty minutes time between New York and my noon position on the 14th.
Capt. Lord was correct. His noontime position was given in evidence as 42° 05'N, 47° 25'W. If you look up the time of local apparent noon on 14 April 1912 at 47° 25'W longitude you will find that it occurred at 15:09:57 GMT, which is 3 hours 10 minutes ahead of Californian time. In NY it was 10:09:57, or 1 hour 50 minutes behind Californian time.
At noon on April 14, Titanic was close to 44° 30'W longitude, having traveled 1549 miles since departing the Daunt's Rock LV outside of Queenstown. At that location on 14 April 1912, local apparent noon (12:00 Titanic) came at 14:58 GMT which is 2 hours 58 minutes ahead of Titanic time. In NY it was 09:58, or 2 hours 2 minutes behind Titanic time. For Titanic's clocks to have been 1 hour 33 minutes ahead of NY (3 hours 27 minutes behind GMT) at the time of collision and foundering as later claimed, then her clocks had to have been put back sometime between noon and the time of collision by some 29 minutes. Furthermore, if you accept that her clocks were 1 hour 33 minutes ahead of NY time at the time of collision, then you have to believe that the last rocket fired from Titanic occurred almost a full hour before the ship sank. And if you accept Harold Brides evidence that Capt. Smith released his wireless operators when Carpathia and Franfurt were last contacted, which can easily be traced to 11:55pm NY time, then that would have corresponded to 1:28am on Titanic assuming a 1 hour 33 minute time difference. That is about 52 minutes before the ship sank if you accept that the ship sank at 2:20am Titanic time.
Oh, and to prove that the time difference between New York and the Titanic was two hours plus, you cite the evidence of Officers Pitman and Boxhall, both of whom testified it was 1:33.
Pitman said that his watch was showing time that was last set the night before so that it would be accurate at noontime on Sunday the 14th of April. That means it had to be set 2 hours and 58 minutes behind GMT if it was to show 12:00 at noon on the 14th. In my opinion, the extra 29 minutes came about when trying to figure out how the ship was able to reach a longitude of 50° 14'W at the time of collision, which was taken as 11:46pm according to Boxhall who worked up the distress position. Remove those extra 29 minutes of steaming, and set the collision time back to 11:40pm instead of 11:46pm, and you will find the vessel just 2 miles north of the wreck site, not 13 west of the wreck site location as everyone at the time believed.
 

Jim Currie

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But you are not being consistent with that definitive statement when you then say, "when he [Capt. Smith] had the Patent Log reading for 4 pm and saw that it was 84 miles instead of the expected 86.4 miles, he estimated that there was a half knot current against him." The log wouldn't show current.

Let me also point out that there is zero evidence of Capt. Smith seeing a 4pm log reading of 84 miles or expecting to see 86.4 miles. The only log readings we were told about is the advance of 45 miles in the log between 8 and 10pm Sunday, and the 260 miles from noon to the time of collision. PERIOD.
Not 74 rpm. We were told by Barrett that the number of revolutions carried averaged 75 rpm since noontime Saturday. An increase to 75 rpm was also confirmed by Ismay. In fact, if leading fireman Hendrickson was right, when he came on duty in the stokehold at 4pm Sunday afternoon, he was told by an engineer that the ship had made 76 rpm in the previous watch. That would be from noon to 4pm Sunday. The last number concerning revolutions carried that I could find came from greaser Scott who stated that Titanic was making 75 rpm at 11pm. The 21.5 knots at 74 rpm that you referred to came from Wilding, and that was for Olympic. At 75 rpm, Olympic would run about 21.8 knots. The pitch of Titanic's wing propellers were set higher than that of Olympic by 1.45% which would ideally would produce about almost 1/3 knot higher speed when carrying 75 rpm. (Ismay was told to expect about 1/4 knot better performance.)
You'r picking nits again Sam. I used the rpm number from a failing memory. Are you trying to get to the truth or correcting an exam paper? But I'll humour you. You write:

"At 75 rpm, Olympic would run about 21.8 knots. The pitch of Titanic's wing propellers were set higher than that of Olympic by 1.45% which would ideally would produce about almost 1/3 knot higher speed when carrying 75 rpm"

The key word in the above quote is "ideally". Did Captain Smith know about these ideals? You keep forgetting that they had not even worked-up the slip tables by the time of the disaster. As for your zero evidence of Captain Smith seeing the log at 4 pm: are you serious? Do you really think there is any doubt the he did see it? If that is so, then you certainly have no idea what happens on a big ship running to a schedule and approaching an important turning point or as they call it nowadays, "Waypoint".
I find it hard to believe that you seriously think that Smith left the questions of what to steer and when to steer a course up to a subordinate.
You still avoid the most important question. You still have not addressed the question as to what speed Boxhall thought she was doing before he determined she was making 22 knots.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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You still seem to be mixing distance by log with distance made good.

From the daily mileage runs we were told, the vessel travelled 1549 miles to noon on the 14th. That leaves about 126 miles to the corner, consistent with a total travel distance from Daunts Rock LV to the corner of 1675 miles. (From Olympic data from 4 voyages commanded by EJ Smith over the same route of travel as Titanic, we find distances from Daunts Rock to the corner of: V1 1677 miles, V2 1674 miles,V3 1676 miles, and V8 1675 miles.) Lowe even said he calculated the ships course from noon to the corner that day. It's no secret that he would have known the ship was 126 miles before the corner at noon. Based on that little chit of paper he handed to Sen. Smith, and Smith's immediate response, what he showed Smith is how he got a speed of 21 knots by simply dividing 126 miles by the 6 hours that he mentioned. He then said it was really a little less than that, 20.95 knots, which would make the distance 125.7 miles if he cared to be more exact.

If we go with your belief that the log measured 122.2 miles at 5:50pm, then there is no way that Boxhall, or anyone else for that matter, could claim that the ship was to the south and west of the corner when she turned at 5:50pm. A run of 126 miles in six hours (or 122.2 in 5h 50m) yielding a speed through the water of 21 knots is inconsistent with an advance of nearly 45 miles in two hours seen at 10pm. In fact, it is inconsistent with Olympic making 21.5 knots carrying 74 revolutions which comes from Wilding. And Titanic was expected to make about 1/4 knot better than her sister ship according to an admission from Ismay. (At 75 revolutions Olympic would have ran about 21.8 knots.) And since the log "indicates the distance travelled through the water, not the distance made good," a run of only 126 miles by log in 6 hours, or 21 knots, is certainly inconsistent with Titanic carrying 75rpm; unless, of course, you want suggest that her revolutions had gone down to about 71 or 72rpm over that six hour period which goes against what was reported.
 
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Aaron_2016

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Steam back to Belfast? A little too far? Halifax was much closer. The wreck is facing a northerly direction and survivors saw the stern swing away from the iceberg as the ship turned north. They said they rowed northwards towards the lights of a ship that could be seen almost directly off Titanic's bow. (The Californian saw the Titanic facing northwards towards them). Survivors also said the northern lights appeared where the other ship was and they were confident it was north e.g. Major Peuchen "Directly north, I think it would be, because the northern lights appeared where this light we had been looking at in that direction appeared shortly afterwards." When they rowed towards the other ship, she began to steam away and they turned around and saw the Carpathia in the opposite direction which was southwards and they turned around "the boat swung round" and they rowed back the way they came down towards the Carpathia to the south. I think there is plenty of evidence to show the Titanic was facing a northerly direction. If they had any intention of steaming back to Belfast the Californian would have seen them turn around, but they saw her turn northwards towards them and stop.


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George Jacub

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Californian clocks were 3 hours and 10 minutes behind GMT, or 1 hour 50 minutes ahead of mean time in NY. Unaltered Titanic time for April 14th was 2 hours 58 minutes behind GMT, or 2 hours and 2 minutes ahead of NY. That means that time on Titanic was 12 minutes ahead of Californian time.
No, Sam, no matter how many times you say it, that's still wrong. The difference between New York Time and Titanic time was one hour and 33 minutes, confirmed by the Titanic's three most senior surviving officers---and, by extension, the staff at the Senate Titanic hearing. Not a soul testified that the time difference was 2:02.
If the time difference on the Californian was 1 hour and 50 minutes, then the difference between the time on the Titanic and the time on the Californian was 17 minutes. In other words take the time on the Titanic and add 17 minutes and you get the time on the Californian or take the time on the Californian and subtract 17 minutes and you get the time on the Titanic.
Herbert Stone, the Californian's second officer, testified at the British Inquiry that he saw the last rocket fired at 1:40 a.m. That would be 1:23 Titanic time. The man firing the rockets, Quartermaster George Rowe, said he fired the last rocket at about 1:25 a.m.
Another amazing coincidence, Sam? Or still more confirmation of the true time difference between New York and Titanic?
 

Alex F

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None of the above. After the ship struck the iceberg, exactly where Boxhall said it did, the ship's engines were restarted and it was turned around to head back to Harland & Wolff's, just like Phillips told Bride. It only got as far as 13 miles when the flooding forced them to stop the ship again. And that is where she sank. The reason Boxhall did not change the CQD position is that he was away looking for damage, and nobody told him that they were headed back after he returned. My proof is the position of the wreck site relative to Boxhall's CQD position. Those positions are hard, cold facts, not suppositions or beliefs.
Good Idea. Was it possible for the Titanic to sail underwater as U-boat being pushed by current as Jim think?
Iceberg manage somehow to drift underwater.
Either the Titanic should be an icebreaker moving back from the position "exactly where Boxhall said it did".

There was an icefield around as far as eye could see. The Mount Temple was unable to move through it, neither the California.


Mr. BOXHALL.
Before I boarded the Carpathia. Well, the Titanic's lights seem to have disappeared some considerable time before I boarded the Carpathia, because I saw the Carpathia's lights for some considerable time.

Senator SMITH.
After you boarded the Carpathia during that early morning, Monday morning, or after you left the Titanic's side, did you see any icebergs?

Mr. BOXHALL.
Not until I got within about two or three ship's lengths of the Carpathia, when I saw her engines were stopped - then I saw the icebergs; it was just breaking daylight then.

Senator SMITH.
Where were they?

Mr. BOXHALL.
Close to the Carpathia.

Senator SMITH.
How close?

Mr. BOXHALL.
He seemed to have stopped within half a mile or quarter of a mile of the berg.

Senator SMITH.
How many did you see?

Mr. BOXHALL.
Numerous bergs. As daylight broke I saw them.

Senator SMITH.
About how many?

Mr. BOXHALL.
I would not like to say.

Senator SMITH.
More than two?

Mr. BOXHALL.
Certainly more than two. Several bergs.

Senator SMITH.
That is four or five or six?

Mr. BOXHALL.
And field ice. I could see field ice then as far as the eye could see.
Sam Boxhall said the Titanic was in half a mile from the point where she struck an icefield.

Mr. BOXHALL.
Yes; that was the position at the time she struck.

Senator SMITH.
Was that where she sank, do you know?

Mr. BOXHALL.
I do not know. She would just drift a little way farther on, probably half a mile or so.
I was not possible for the experienced navigator - as Boxhall was - not to feel that the Titanic was under full speed for half an hour to cover 13 miles back, trembling, thrilling and growling...

BR
Alex
 
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Jim Currie

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That 'magician's hat' of yours must be getting empty, Sam. I'll answer both your posts here.

The points illustrated in that conversation with QM Rowe quoted in the letter from J. Powell are contradictions of all we know.

Take it step by step:

1. If they were firing the rockets while QM Rowe was still at the stern and he saw the first boat at 12-20 pm then that does not fit with any of the evidence available anywhere. Not even time time evidence.
The evidence from 5th Officer Lowe (and Lawrence Beesley) clearly shows that the first signal was fired from the starboard side at the bow of .lifeboat number 3. Other evidence shows that starboard side boats 5, 7 were launched 10 minutes before No. 3. began loading. That being the situation, Rowe could not have seen the first boat launched, nor could he have seen the first rocket launched.
As for Boxhall: as he was in the act of firing the first rocket, how on earth could he have missed seeing them loading boat 3, the third boat launched? Or have noticed that 7, and 5 had already been launched? You will recall he distinctly stated "- I do not know what time the first boat was lowered." The socket for launching the signals was no more than 100 feet aft of the locations of Nos. 5 and 7. He must have had recourse to clearing the area of passengers before he fired the first one off.

2. What I find far more interesting and the question you should be asking is why was it that when they were at the poop, neither Rowe nor his mate, Bright, make mention at any of the Inquiries mentioned seeing pyrotechnic signals...signals that they could not have missed unless they were blind, deaf and dumb.? Because without doubt, if they were not so afflicted, then after the detonation of the first of these signals at such close proximity they would have been temporarily deafened by the bang, blinded by the flash and their innards would have been vibrating. Believe me, witnessing one of these going off for the first time is a memorable occasion.

3. As for the evidence of 5th Officer Lowe, re 'detonator'. I'm not sure what point you are making. I'm sure you know this but allow me to remind you:
Detonators make a very loud BANG when they detonate. It may surprise you to know that the sound of a detonator exploding was a very familiar sound to Rowe...particularly if, as a lad, he had lived near a railway line. It was a familiar sound to every young person in the days of the steam railway and even much later when I was a lad. Projectiles themselves make very little sound except for the 'whoosh' of them passing through air. (unless they are faster than sound.).

4. I am perfectly aware of the reason behind Senator Smith's line of questioning. He asked a simple sailorman two questions:

a: At what time did you see the iceberg? and b: What was the interval between ringing three bells and impact.?

To question (a), Fleet answered truthfully: "I could not tell you the time.".
His questioner persisted. In so many words he suggested to Fleet: "Go on. Have a stab at it".
Fleet obliged and answered as any sailor would, not with a clock time but with "Just after 7 bells".

Then Smith asks question (b) which to Fleet would have seemed a different question.
Fleet once again answers honestly: " I have no idea."
These are the answers Fleet would have given to another sailor-man. He was not used to answering 'shysters'.
So the Shyster in question shot off into sarcastic space with his next line of questioning. He kept harping back to the theme. It would have saved an awful lot of time if he had established at the very beginning if there had been a means of telling time in the crow's nest. What did he expect? OK Guv! It's a fair cop. "We were fell asleep on duty and caused all that death."

I have no reason whatsoever to disbelieve Fleet. What I do believe is that he and his mate each had an understandably horrific guilt complex. Perhaps somehow, if they had seen the berg sooner they could have saved so many lives? Who knows?

5. Now for Hogg's remarks concerning the striking of bells in the Crow's Nest.
Hogg's previous duty was up to 8 pm, the previous time 8 bells were sounded. He would naturally assume he was being questioned about that and was being perfectly honest about it.
Boxhall was questioned about how he knew during his Watch from 10 to Midnight that the Lookouts were at their post in the Crow's. nest. He stated that he knew they were there, not from the repeating of the bridge bells but from the sound of their individual voices.
I was simply explaining to you that my experience of passenger ships fits with the evidence of Fleet.
Think about it. If at 11-30 pm, the bridge sounded 7 bells and this was immediately followed by the men in the nest sounding 7 bells on that massive thing they had up there, and/ or by the forecastle lookout doing the same on the anchor bell, that's 14 or even 21 continuous sounding of very loud bells. Then. shortly after, there there three more loud rings, followed shortly after that by 16 or 24 continuous rings.
I can tell you without fear of contradiction, he Chief Purser would be inundated by complaints from irate passengers the next morning.

On the subject of bells...a happy and Prosperous New Year to you and yours and to all my ET friends.
 

Jim Currie

Member
Apr 16, 2008
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Funchal. Madeira
Hello Marcus.

Memory's a bit dim now and have lost my notes. However, I worked the problem in exactly the same way as the officers of Titanic would have done.
The course they used was laid down for them. However, If they had had to work the entire Great Circle Course. they would have split it into 10 degree rumb line segments so as to facilitate the use of the Traverse Tables. Then they would have used the Haversine Tables and the logarthmic functions of angles tables.
They would have used the sine and haversine formulae applied to the spherical triangle APB where P = Pole, A = initial position, B the final position,angle A the initial course and angle B the final course. The distance being side AB.

Distance: Hav. BA = Hav P. sin PB+ hav(AB diff PB).

Initial Hav A= hav PB minus ha.v(AB diff AP divided by sin AB,sin AP.

Final Course: Hav. B = hav PA minus hav.(BA diff BP) divided by sin BA, BP...

Note: Hav, = natural haversine and hav = log haversine. sin - log sine of the angle.

As a matter of fact, my distance works out to be exactly 1618 nautical miles. It depends on the departure coordinates used.

Cheers!

Jim.
 
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George Jacub

Member
Sep 28, 2005
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How Far South Was The Iceberg That Holed The Titanic?

The Sunday Morning Star
Wilmington, Delaware
April 28, 1912
The Titanic's Position
It will probably surprise most persons to know how far south the Titanic was when it encountered the iceberg that gave the steamship its death blow. The location of the boat given by the wireless call for help was 41:46 north and 50:14 west. A reference to the map will show that this point is south of all the New England states. A map of Europe will show the location of the Titanic when it went down ever more strikingly. The ship sailed from Southampton, England, in latitude about 50 north, and she was at least 9 degrees, or about 600 statute miles, south of that latitude when she struck the iceberg. She was in a latitude not only far south of the English channel, but farther south than any part of Germany, France, or Austria. She was about the same latitude as Rome and Constantinople. The Riviera, where many Europeans and Americans go to find a mild winter climate is farther north than was the Titanic when she ran into the ice field.
In fact the Titanic was in the same latitude as the Adriatic Sea and the northern part of the Mediterranean. She was not more than 100 miles north of the Azores, which is on the southernmost course across the Atlantic, even for ships bound for the Mediterranean. If a line was drawn from New York City to Madrid, Spain, that line would pass near the point where the Titanic sank in a great field of ice. All reports show that the ice field was fast moving south.
These facts raise and interesting question: How far south would the Titanic have had to go to have escaped the ice?
 
Nov 26, 2016
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Hello Jim,

do we know from somewhere that the great circle from fastnet to Corner was split into 10 rumb line segments?
In the book which i have about astronomical Navigation there is an example for the great circle from Tokyo to San Francisco.
They split it just into three romb lines. The three rumb lines add on to 4491 miles, which is just 31 miles more than the great circle.
When the great circle from fastnet to Corner is split into three Segments, we have 1620 instead of 1618 miles.

There is no need to split into 10 Segments for the benefit of 2 miles. Did WSL split in that way?

Markus