How many died on the Carpathia after being rescued


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Abigail Apodaca

Guest
I am working on a speech and would like to know if anyone has heard how many "survivors" actually died on the Carpathia from the after-affects of exposure and/or hypothermia. I've heard "several" but not been able to substantiate that.
 

Pat Cook

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Apr 27, 2000
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Hi Abigail,

Interesting question to which, I'm afraid, there isn't a simple answer. Not only is the number ot those who died and were buried at sea in question but also the number of 'services' held on the Carpathia - some sources state one and some as many as three, with the number of victims also varying.

Second Class passenger Lawrence Beesley wrote, in his book "The Loss of the SS Titanic":

"During the day, the bodies of eight of the crew were committed to the deep; four of them had been taken out of the boats dead and four died during the day."

Here's what I have found regarding this subject.
The four taken from the boats already dead were William Hoyt, Steward S. C. Siebert, Seaman W. H. Lyons, and possibly John Phillips, this according to the book "The Sinking of the Titanic and Other Sea Disasters" (the question of Phillips being one of the dead has been all but ruled out, however). The four who died during the day included Third Class Abraham Harmer (David Livshin), this according to this very website and the aforementioned book.

As to the number of services: According to the April 19 edition of the New York Herald, Fred Beachler (Carpathia passenger) stated that Hoyt, Harmer and Seibert were buried on the 15th and Lyons, who succumbed later, was buried the following morning. Also, in the same issue, Carpathia Assistant Saloon Steward William David was quoted as saying, "On Monday (April 15) five survivors died; on Tuesday, three; and on Wednesday, two. They were buried at sea."

Hope this is of some help.

Best regards,
Cook
 
B

Bob Cruise

Guest
Not to be a wise-ass, but how does this help?

Beesley:
4 were taken from the lifeboats dead
4 died during the day
8 were committed to the deep during the day

"The Sinking of the Titanic and Other Sea Disasters":
4 taken from the boats already dead (William Hoyt, Steward S. C. Siebert, Seaman W. H. Lyons, and possibly John Phillips)
4 died during the day (included Third Class Abraham Harmer).

Fred Beachler (Carpathia passenger):
3 (Hoyt, Harmer and Seibert) were buried on the 15th
1 (Lyons, who succumbed later) was buried the following morning.

Carpathia Assistant Saloon Steward William David:
5 survivors died Monday, April 15
3 on Tuesday, April 16
2 on Wednesday, April 17

The bodies are beginning pile up, along with, I am sure, the alibis.

Where were you, Pat, on the night of the 15th?

(Me? I was far West of the ship, safely on land - driving a White Bronco.)

Bob
 
L

lisa bruner

Guest
wow ! I did not realize the aftermath casualties were so high. Gee, forgive me, but I did not know about this at all. Quite the information here. I thank you too.

Lisa
 

Chris Dohany

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Jan 8, 2001
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I have always thought most of those numbers were a bit extreme. According to Rostron, only one "survivor" died aboard Carpathia - seaman William Lyons. The Carpathia's Purser, Ernest Brown, reported that four bodies in total were buried at sea from Carpathia, identifying them as Abraham Harmer, William Hoyt, William Lyons, and Sidney Seibert.
 
J

Jason Bidwell

Guest
Could Beesley have possibly combined two different bits of information he heard in order to get the figure of eight dead? Only four people were buried at sea from the Carpathia, but perhaps one person told him "four were taken dead from the boats," and another reported "four died aboard ship," and Beesley guilelessly added both together? Just a hypothesis.
 

Pat Cook

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Apr 27, 2000
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First, I'd like to thank Abigail for bringing up this question (I have a crowd of these myself in connection with Beesley and this one was one of the most nagging).

To Bob - not being a wise-ass at all, sir. I just 'reported' what I had found to show the confusion and differing accounts of the event(s). Not sure WHERE I was on the 15th, but that probably also had to do with either Titanic or my taxes, two unrelated disasters.

To Lisa - when you add in those who died later (Archibald Gracie) from complicatons, the count rises even more. Still we're not sure just who DID die then and were buried then.

To Chris - thanks for those accounts. I knew of Rostron's but had not heard Ernest Brown's account.

To Jason - beats me! Beesley stated 8 deaths and I have been trying to track down SOME report matching his (William David's was the closest I found). While I may be considered a Beesley 'champion', the man occasionally gets a 'fact' wrong here and there (other than the ship remaining intact, his other consistent inconsistancy is he is almost NEVER on the deck he says he is.)

Any other accounts regarding the deaths and services on the Carpathia will be most welcome.

Best regards,
Cook
 
Nov 22, 2000
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Some of you boys have mentioned Abraham Harmer who was buried from the Carpathia but does anyone know why he travelled under that name, and more importantly, how he came to be buried using that name? It would seem to imply that their was some sort of documentation on his person bearing the name "Abraham Harmer". In reality, of course, he was David Livshin from Manchester, going ahead of his pregnant wife,Chyna, to set up a jewellery business in the USA. His son, also David, born posthumously, went on to become a very distinguished High Court Judge here in England.
I have been in contact with the family for many years and they can cast no light upon the reason for the assumed name. The name of Harmer is unknown to them and all the correspondence in the Relief Fund files refers to him by his correct name. Maybe someone can enlighten me?

Geoff
 

Pat Cook

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Thanks, Geoff! I can't speak for the others but this is news to me. But, at my age, what isn't?!

Yore ol' Gramps,
Cook
 

Pat Cook

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Apr 27, 2000
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Well, this really DOES show what a sap I can be. I just read my first post on this thread and, it turns out, I DID know that Harmer and Livshin were the same person after all.

I have got to start taking notes!

Sheepishly yours,
Cook
 

Pat Cook

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Apr 27, 2000
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Odd you'd say that, I DO have these pills to help my memory...now if I can only remember where I put them...
 
Nov 22, 2000
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Chris, Yes, that's all I could come up with - but why? All I can think is that he purchased someone else's ticket, but again why? Then again, why did he make the journey 225 miles away to Southampton when he could have sailed from Liverpool, only about 30 miles from his home address? It wasn't even as though he was running away from his wife or family - they all knew he was going to America.
Aren't things like this frustrating?

Geoff
 
May 12, 2005
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all,

Is it possible Livshin used an assumed name because he was carrying a lot of jewelry for his business and didn't want to be robbed? Is there a record of what he had in his luggage?

The Risiens were pretty well-to-do and supposedly traveled steerage to avoid suspicion that they were carrying diamonds from their mine in Durban. There are the case of the gamblers using fake names. And Rosenshine and his gal going by HER name to shield their situation. Navratil AKA Hoffman. And some couple named Duff Gordon using an alias to avoid publicity.

It seems Titanic was full of people who weren't who they said they were.

I'm just curious if this was a common thing then. Are there many cases of this on Lusitania?

Randy
 
Nov 22, 2000
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Randy, Very few, but there does appear to be incest!
I don't think that Livshin would have had diamonds - although - you've got me thinking here Randy! - he may have been carrying them for someone else? If that was the case, wouldn't his first reaction be to put them in his pocket - he didn't know he was going to drown, after all!
The Livshin family are under the impression that he was not so much a jeweller as a watch and clock repairer - though he may have ben hoping to branch out once in America.
Strangely enough, all of the Manchester newspapers refer to him as Livshin, with no mention of Harmer, whilst national papers still call him Harmer.
As an aside, the Titanic Relief Fund paid for his widow and posthumous son to visit her family in Russia. They were still there at the onset of World War One and remained, unable to leave the country until 1920. By this time the Titanic Relief Fund had forgotten about them, and they had to wait to emigrate back to their own home in England!
 

Pat Cook

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Now, I may have missed something (this happens so OFTEN!) but I'm getting curious as to how he was identifed as Harmer and then, almost as quickly, as Livshin. If there WAS a ticket in the name of Harmer, was there also other I D in the name of Livshin? And, if this WAS the case, wouldn't the logical course of action be to go by his other I D rather than the ticket name?

As ever,
Cook
 

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