How many people went down inside Titanic


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Tim McCann

Guest
Was it in the hundreds? The reason I was wondering was because I know that several steerage passengers were locked up below decks and may have never had a chance to save themselves. Does anybody know the proper number of people that went down with the great ship? Thanks.
 
Apr 14, 2001
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tim it is true that we may never know how many died and survived but estimates show that out of 2,228 people on board 1,523 people died and 705 survived and i hope this helps you jennifer mueller
 

Phillip Gowan

Member
Apr 10, 2001
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Hi Bill,
Things like survivor names of Carl Jonsson and Karl Johanssen (Johnson) contribute to the confusion--often counted as one person when there were really two survivors. And of course the Borak/Borek/Moubarek dilemma and other similar ones probably have an effect upon the count as well. I'm disinclined to write a list of the 712 in my spreadsheet but will be glad to show it to you sometime--join us for the TML 2000 Convention in New York and I'll bring it along.

Take care my friend,
Phillip
 

Phillip Gowan

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Apr 10, 2001
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Karen,
That refers to the Titanic Mailing List --an internet mailing list owned by Jeff Newman, composed of several hundred Titanic buffs. We're having our first (of what we hope will be annual) conventions in New York City on the Labor Day Weekend. If you want to contact me privately I'll give you more details.

habanero17@yahoo.com

Regards,
Phillip
 
Dec 6, 2000
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Phillip - thanks for the reply. I wasn't asking for the whole 712 - like you, I've also got a spreadsheet list (though I'm sure yours if far more extensive than mine). Asking/hoping that there was an easy way to point out the extra 7 people.

Wait a minute - this is the Titanic! Ain't nothing easy!

Sorry to say, I won't be able to make the TML convention - not enough money, and family health issues (not mine) are gonna keep me away. Did want to see you and Roy M. (who I met in '97) again.
 

Shane Kurup

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Jan 4, 2001
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As I understand, only a few people were atually trapped onboard Titanic as she made her final plunge. When Robert Ballard discovered the wreck of the Titanic in 1985, one question which was asked so many times was "Did you see any bodies?".
No atual human remains were found, as the flesh was consumed my deep-sea creatures, and the acidic sea floor slowly broke down the bones, leaving nothing left. How ever, they did find a some pairs of matching shoes on the sea bottom, which were made from tanned leather, and had survived over 70 years on the sea floor. As the some of the shoes were atually pairs, Robert Ballard claimed that the shoes had arrived there on their owners' feet, and as the body decomposed
, the shoes remained. They were also asked if there is a chance that human remains from those trapped were still inside the Titanic. As far as I know most people escaped the ship as she sank but an unlucky few were trapped inside the boiler rooms. When the Titanic reached the sea floor, her hull deeply inbedded itself in the mud. It is so deeply inbedded, that the hight of the mud is up to the bow anchor. Some experts belive that human remains may be found buried deep in the mud.
i hope this helps! Shane Kurup
 
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Tom Pappas

Guest
Well, let's see (round numbers):

700 saved
300 recovered
1200 missing

The statistics presented by Bill Wormstedt's excellent An Analysis of the Bodies Recovered from the Titanic make it clear that if a victim's (duty or social) station placed him or her inside the ship, the odds of that person's body being recovered was drastically reduced. When you read Bill's workup, pay particular attention to the section titled Summary of the groups, where this relationship jumps right off the page.

Furthermore, since only 22% of those who died were recovered, yet the preponderance of floating bodies were more or less tightly clustered 30+ miles away a week after the sinking (not scattered by the wind and current as some have suggested), I think it's fairly safe to conclude that the majority of the 1200 missing went down inside the vessel.
 

Don Tweed

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Mar 30, 2006
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Well I really do not believe that that many hundreds went down with the ship, 200 tops.
And I will give you my reasons.
Self preservation is foremost with any species, and when backed into a corner will defend itself to the death.
It's a primordial instinct.
I do not want to comment on the pairs of shoes around the stern.
That is sacred, sad, and telling of what we all lend to her memory.
"Like clusters of bees, they looked to me."
Someone said that.
From some lifeboat.
To be 100 to 200 yards off her hull, on that night, must have been, awesome to behold.
The travesty unfolding before them must have benn shocking.
The seas took the remains, and our interest is all that remains.
I will go to bed now, for I am in need of much sleep, and working on the model has killed me!!!
happy.gif

-Don
 
Dec 6, 2000
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Part of the reason I wrote my article "An Analysis of the Bodies Recovered from the Titanic", was a reaction to the statements sometimes made that NO ONE went down inside the ship.

A few items not mentioned at my site:

Fireman Barrett *saw* men trapped below in the water of one of the boiler rooms as he escaped.

One of the stewards (Hart?) mentioned that some of the 3rd class passengers would not leave their rooms. Of course, they may have later, after the steward left, but would it be too late?

Gracie's claim of a mass of people coming up the Grand Staircase onto the deck, just before the deck goes under water. It is unlikely that *all* of this mass of people made it out on deck, some/many? would have been still coming up from below.

What about people who were on deck, but were sucked back inside the ship, as Cameron's movie showed? Gracie & Lightoller were 2 lucky ones to be sucked down, and still survive - how many didn't make it back up?

I feel the numbers at my site do show that more than just a few people went down inside the ship, although the numbers do not prove it. How many were trapped? Who knows?
 

Dave Gittins

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Apr 11, 2001
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Quite a number may have gone down with the ship, but not necessarily inside it. There's a lot of evidence that those on deck were mostly wearing lifebelts, but that comes from those who got off in time. I wonder how many of the crowd seen by Gracie were wearing them.

Bill has a point about people getting sucked down. Gracie and Lightoller got away with it, but they were on the open deck. Anybody caught a deck or two down would have been in big trouble. There's a witness, whose name I forget, who mentions taking care to get out from the enclosed part of A deck. He could see what a trap that was.
 

George Behe

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Dec 11, 1999
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Hi, Bill!

>Fireman Barrett *saw* men trapped below in the >water of one of the boiler rooms as he escaped.

To the best of my knowledge, Barrett himself never said this -- Walter Lord did in ANTR. (I once asked Walter about this discrepancy, but -- although he replied to my letter's other questions -- he remained silent about this one.)

I can't help but think that Walter might have embellished Barrett's account a bit, since Barrett himself never seems to have mentioned seeing engineers Harvey and Shepherd trapped by rising water in the boiler room. (In fact, I've seen one survivor account which says that the injured Shepherd had already been carried aft to safety and was no longer in the boiler room in which he broke his leg.)

All my best,

George
 
Dec 6, 2000
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Thanks, George. I just went and looked at Barrett's testimony (BI. 2000 to 2075), and he does not say anything about seeing Harvey and Shepherd being caught in the water. Obviously, I'm remembering the Walter Lord version better than the Inquiry testimony.

One of these days, I'll get the Lord version of this out of my head!
 
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Tom Pappas

Guest
I suppose there were some who didn't don lifebelts, but since there were over 3,000 belts on board, the disappearance of 1,200 people can't be attributed solely to people not wearing them.

Some of those without lifebelts sank to the bottom near the ship. We can infer this from the paired shoes found in the debris field. I think the absence of 1,200 pairs of shoes there must mean the number of victims who sank was small.

Some of those that floated undoubtedly drifted away, and some of those may have sunk. But since still-floating victims were recovered as much as a month later, I think it unlikely that a great number floated away and then sank. Remember, we're looking for many hundreds of people in one of the most-traveled pieces of ocean on earth.

The ineluctable conclusion is that more than a thousand people were either trapped inside, or sucked into, the sinking ship.

Either that, or White Star had bought lifebelts that were 80% defective
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Dec 6, 2000
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I would think that very many people were in lifebelts on the surface after the ship sank. Most of these bodies were scattered by the winds and tides and just weren't found - the odds of finding bodies scattered in ones or twos would not be very high, even in a highly travelled area of the North Atlantic. Most of the recovered bodies were 'clumped' together in the same area.

What little 'proof' I have to this, is the loss of my brother-in-law at sea 10 years ago. His boat went down at the Grays Harbor (Wash.) bar within sight of land, and his body was never found. He was last seen trying to climb into a life raft. The exhaustive Coast Guard search didn't find him, nor was he washed up on shore. He just disappeared.

Though I do believe quite a few people went down inside the ship, whether unable to get out, or sucked down, maybe a few hundred, I seriously doubt 1000 were caught that way. Most of these were just scattered, and may even have dropped to the bottom miles from the wreck site.
 
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Tom Pappas

Guest
Bill said:
Most of the recovered bodies were 'clumped' together in the same area.
But doesn't that suggest that the other bodies would not be "scattered by winds and tides"? I take the fact that Rhein and Bremen encountered a large concentration of corpses 35 miles from the sinking to mean that the tendency was for the wind and current to "herd" (I'm thinking Sargasso Sea) rather than disperse them.
 
Dec 6, 2000
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Oh, I'm not claiming that many didn't remain clumped - just that I feel many more gradually spread apart over the ocean. And the longer it was since the disaster, the more spread out the bodies were.

And even a large clump of 100 or so wouldn't be seen unless a ship was within several miles of them.
 

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