How many TItanic books do you have?

Gordon Mooneyhan

Gordon Mooneyhan

Member
I have two, On a Sea of Glass and A Night to Remember. I also have an e-book copy of Titanic and Other Ships although I'm old-fashioned enough to not count an e-book as a book. I am currently working on a book about the Titanic titled Three Captains: Smith, Lord, and Rostron and the Night the Titanic Sank. I'm not sure which is harder, trying to relearn celestial navigation or reading through the Senate and British Board of Trade Inquiries transcripts.

I have to admit that I'm finding Lightoller's book to be fascinating. There are things in it that should have come out in the BBOT inquiry that didn't which are leading me to have questions about his "honesty" or recollection of the facts may be the better way to phrase it. Specifically, his conversation with Senior Wireless Operator Philips while they were on Collapsible B. That conversation was not mentioned in any of his testimony. And that conversation is why the Marconi Company threatened to sue over the publication of the book, and why the book was pulled from publication. I have my own theory as to why that conversation didn't come out during either hearing and will talk about it in my book.
 
Seumas

Seumas

Member
I have two, On a Sea of Glass and A Night to Remember. I also have an e-book copy of Titanic and Other Ships although I'm old-fashioned enough to not count an e-book as a book. I am currently working on a book about the Titanic titled Three Captains: Smith, Lord, and Rostron and the Night the Titanic Sank. I'm not sure which is harder, trying to relearn celestial navigation or reading through the Senate and British Board of Trade Inquiries transcripts.

I have to admit that I'm finding Lightoller's book to be fascinating. There are things in it that should have come out in the BBOT inquiry that didn't which are leading me to have questions about his "honesty" or recollection of the facts may be the better way to phrase it. Specifically, his conversation with Senior Wireless Operator Philips while they were on Collapsible B. That conversation was not mentioned in any of his testimony. And that conversation is why the Marconi Company threatened to sue over the publication of the book, and why the book was pulled from publication. I have my own theory as to why that conversation didn't come out during either hearing and will talk about it in my book.
I suggest you'll need to expand the reading list.

George Behe's and Sam Halpern's books are a must. Dr Paul Lee and Sam Halpern's books on the Californian affair are also essential reading for that particular subject.
 
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Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
I have to admit that I'm finding Lightoller's book to be fascinating. There are things in it that should have come out in the BBOT inquiry that didn't which are leading me to have questions about his "honesty" or recollection of the facts may be the better way to phrase it
Titanic and Other Ships was written in 1935, by which time Lightoller had attained the status of an "Old Sea Dog". For that and other reasons, I think we have to allow quite a bit of latitude to various points of his reminiscing.

Specifically, his conversation with Senior Wireless Operator Philips while they were on Collapsible B. That conversation was not mentioned in any of his testimony
There is quite a difference of opinion whether Phillips actually made it to the top of Collapsible B. I personally don't believe that he got anywhere near that or any other lifeboat. After the two wireless operators came out of their rooms for the last time, I believe Phillips went aft towards the rising stern and very likely died there with hundreds of others during the final plunge.
 
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Seumas

Seumas

Member
There is quite a difference of opinion whether Phillips actually made it to the top of Collapsible B. I personally don't believe that he got anywhere near that or any other lifeboat. After the two wireless operators came out of their rooms for the last time, I believe Phillips went aft towards the rising stern and very likely died there with hundreds of others during the final plunge.
Same.

I don't believe for one moment that Phillips ever made it to Collapsible B.
 
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Gordon Mooneyhan

Gordon Mooneyhan

Member
Same.

I don't believe for one moment that Phillips ever made it to Collapsible B.
I have mixed views on this. There is a report from Junior Wireless Operator Bride that he saw Philips dead on Collapsible B (I'm trying to remember the source but am drawing a blank right now). Yet there is also evidence that Philips was running toward the stern.

This creates a conundrum. If Philips never made it to Collapsible B, then the conversation that Lightoller says he had with Philips in Titanic and Other Ships is a complete fabrication, and it also explains why Lightoller did not mention it at either hearing--because there would have been the other survivors from Collapsible B who could contradict him. And, if Lightoller was willing to lie about this, then how much else did he lie about during the inquiries? This raises another question. Who did Bride see on Collapsible B that he thought was Jack Philips?

Let's look at the other side and for the sake of argument assume that Philips did make it to Collapsible B, and that Bride did see Philips' body on B. That doesn't change the fact that Lightoller's conversation with Philips was a complete, or mostly complete, fabrication. And again, it explains why there was no mention of it in either inquiry because other survivors could contradict him. I can see both sides and, unfortunately, neither one does Lightoller's reputation any good. But it does offer an explanation as to why Lightoller took Sundowner to the Dunkirk evacuation; as an act of redemption.
 
Seumas

Seumas

Member
I have mixed views on this. There is a report from Junior Wireless Operator Bride that he saw Philips dead on Collapsible B (I'm trying to remember the source but am drawing a blank right now). Yet there is also evidence that Philips was running toward the stern.

This creates a conundrum. If Philips never made it to Collapsible B, then the conversation that Lightoller says he had with Philips in Titanic and Other Ships is a complete fabrication, and it also explains why Lightoller did not mention it at either hearing--because there would have been the other survivors from Collapsible B who could contradict him. And, if Lightoller was willing to lie about this, then how much else did he lie about during the inquiries? This raises another question. Who did Bride see on Collapsible B that he thought was Jack Philips?

Let's look at the other side and for the sake of argument assume that Philips did make it to Collapsible B, and that Bride did see Philips' body on B. That doesn't change the fact that Lightoller's conversation with Philips was a complete, or mostly complete, fabrication. And again, it explains why there was no mention of it in either inquiry because other survivors could contradict him. I can see both sides and, unfortunately, neither one does Lightoller's reputation any good. But it does offer an explanation as to why Lightoller took Sundowner to the Dunkirk evacuation; as an act of redemption.
None of the major Titanic historians have ever been satisfied with that Phillips ever got to Collapsible B. I also wouldn't take every word Lightoller said as being true.

Harold Bride's testimony and interviews are notorious for their inconstant quality and have to be treated with caution.

The evidence is very heavily against Jack Phillips ever getting to Collapsible B.

But it does offer an explanation as to why Lightoller took Sundowner to the Dunkirk evacuation; as an act of redemption.
No it doesn't. I don't know how you've come to that conclusion.

The Royal Navy did not have enough personal to man all these craft that had been requisitioned so logically the civilian owners and crews were asked if they would volunteer and almost all of them did so.

Lightoller went to Dunkirk because (i) he probably felt a strong sense of duty, (ii) knew his boat better than anyone else, (iii) was a former naval officer who had seen combat, (iv) he probably was a patriotic individual.

Hundreds of civilian boat owners and their crews (whole crews of pleasure boats, ferries, trawlers, hoppers, dredgers, lighters and owners of motor cruisers) went to Dunkirk with their craft. Charles Lightoller was not unique in that regard.
 
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Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
There is a report from Junior Wireless Operator Bride that he saw Philips dead on Collapsible B
As Seumas says, Bride's testimony was full of clashing inconsistencies and so have to be considered carefully. But he said that "he had heard" that Phillips made it to Collapsible B before dying but not actually seen his colleague himself.

See this excerpt from Bride's testimony at the British Inquiry. IMO, that settles the matter.
16602. And washed you off?
- Yes. The last I saw of Mr. Phillips he was standing on the deck-house.

I believe that the rumour that Phillips had made it to Collapsible B only to die on top of the 'raft' arose either due to Lightoller's mixed statements or (more likely) from Steward Whiteley, who also survived on the same lifeboat. Thomas Whiteley was notoriously unreliable as a witness and made some ridiculous statements about his own survival - like how he swam for "several hours" in the icy water with an injured leg before reaching Collapsible B only to be hit repeatedly with oars by the occupants who refused to allow him on board. But he supposedly hung on till someone on the raft died and then they shoved that body overboard and pulled Whiteley on board. But he had swallowed so much water that they (I assume he meant doctors) had to remove his stomach and replace it (he did not specify replaced with what).

IMO, Phillips never made it to any lifeboat and died with hundreds of others who clung on to the stern during the final plunge.
 
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Oliver James

Oliver James

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I mostly have children's books surrounding the disaster the only full-length book I have is The Truth About Titanic by Col. Gracie
 
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