Hypothetical Question


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Dave Hudson

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What if the Titanic had not sunk? I think she would have been quite popular and would be remembered today much like we remember the Berengaria or Ile de France. White Star probably wouldn't have sold out to Cunard and who knows, maybe it would have been the other way around. Maybe the 1930's would have seen the White Star Cunard Line. What would Britannic have looked like?
Hypothetically,
David
 
Jan 5, 2001
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This isn't exactly *properly* related to the question, but I did a similar timeline idea for Britannic if she had not sunk:

Britannic proposed timeline:

1921: Britannic returns to service following conversion to oil after Olympic at Harland & Wolff.

1923: Although White Star had not lost such a large vessel during the conflict, the HAPAG Bismarck falls under their ownership as reparation for several smaller ships. Her sister Imperator went to Cunard, (to be Berengaria) while Vaterland was being refitted for Atlantic service in the USA for the United States Lines. White Star’s three-ship service is complete: Olympic, Britannic and Majestic. Commodore Bertram Hayes transfers to Majestic after a little over a year on Britannic.

1924: Britannic makes her fastest crossing Eastbound, covering 3,150 miles from Ambrose to Cherbourg in five days eleven hours and nine minutes, a speed of some twenty-four knots, aided by the current.

1925: In a severe storm, a wave crashes over Britannic’s foredecks, breaking the B-deck stateroom windows and filling the five damaged cabins with green water, although one cabin door bursts and floods the forward companionway. The damage is temporarily repaired, but permanently solved during the 1926 overhaul. Fortunately, none of the passengers were hurt although one lost a picture book containing photographs of Charlie Chaplin, Douglas Fairbanks and Mary Pickford, plus P. Rockefeller, travelling on Olympic (‘The Film Star Liner’) in 1921. It was badly damaged.

May 1927: Britannic undergoes overhaul. Her third class accommodation is improved considerably; hospital relocated to the same area as Olympic, while the hospital is replaced by a cinema and the smoke room above, and general room are refurbished extensively. Second class’s aft enclosed promenade on the port side becomes a ‘sidewalk’ promenade café, to compliment that on the first class promenade deck.

Like Olympic, she is more popular than Majestic generally. The BoT inspection notes Majestic is suffering from ‘severe extensive structural breakdown.’

December 1927: Olympic undergoes overhaul, refitted with a cinema in the first class lounge, extra private baths and general improving of accommodation.

Early 1928: Majestic undergoes major refitting, her forward promenade is glassed-in.

Slight repairs are completed to several small cracks in Britannic’s forward starboard plating, originally replaced during 1917/1918 following her striking a mine on November 21st 1916 with the result of serious extensive structural damage. The repairs had been originally completed in a hurry and these cracks had come to light following a minor collision, and denting in that area, between Britannic and Baltic, the latter travelling at four knots following a ‘full astern’ order. Baltic’s passengers report that they were all awoken by a tremendous shaking, which one likened to the San Francisco earthquake, and which broke crockery and damaged furniture toward the stern. Britannic's number three forward hold was badly flooded, although the second hold was kept reasonably dry by pumping.

February 25th 1928: Douglas Fairbanks reports that some personal items have gone missing from his private promenade on the port side of B-deck. Enquiries reveal a Steward to have taken the items, which are unearthed during a search. Further details are not made public.

November 1929: Britannic is shaken by the underwater earthquake while crossing the Atlantic in the opposite direction to Olympic, which also suffers.

January 1930: Britannic beats Olympic’s pre-war record of 24.2 knots Eastbound for one day, logging 24.3 knots aided by the current.

1930 — 1932: Olympic, Britannic and Majestic make occasional cruises from New York while there between crossings, and bank holiday cruises.

Britannic makes her first cruise in 1931.

May 1933: In a severe Atlantic storm, Britannic’s A-deck promenade windows on the port side are damaged; seventeen of the thirty-eight odd windows are smashed, the promenade partly flooded, while the bridge wing is damaged and the forward port gantry davit and its six boats are damaged, two of the boats being smashed to pieces.

Following the reconditioning of her engines, Olympic is performing better than ever before.

Mid-1934: Cunard and White Star merge.

August 1934: Signs of strain are showing on the A-deck supports beneath the aft starboard gantry davits, in addition to the aftermost port set. The supports undergo strengthening, but otherwise her hull survey is satisfactory, as Olympic’s is for 1934 following hull repairs in 1931.

January 1935: Olympic, Britannic and Majestic — along with Berengaria and Aquitania — make far more cruises as the depression begins to lift.

April 1935: Majestic completes her 197th (?) round trip, (Soton-Cher-New York; New York-Cher-Soton), but as her hull construction was always considered inferior she is laid-up and later sold to the scrappers.

1936: At the last-minute, Majestic is sold to become a cadet training ship. Olympic is laid-up for the year, while Britannic cruises the Mediterranean. A few slack rivets are found and repaired.

1937: Olympic makes several cruises following a slight refitting, following Aquitania being laid-up for a refit in 1936 and new propellers after the introduction of the Queen Mary.

1938: Berengaria is continually suffering serious mechanical problems, while after preparing to leave New York she is damaged badly by fire and is refused passenger clearance. Berengaria sails home empty and is scrapped. Britannic takes her place along with Aquitania.

As Aquitania is performing better with her new propellers, giving her a 2½-knot speed increase or a reduction in fuel costs if running at the original speed, Britannic is fitted with the same propellers: two twenty-foot four-bladed wing screws (running at 78 r.p.m.) and a central five-bladed sixteen-foot-nine-inch screw (running at 169 r.p.m.). Britannic’s speed is now 24½ knots, with a possible maximum of twenty-six, although twenty-four is usually maintained.

June 21st 1939: Although Olympic has cruised since 1937, she is now twenty-eight years old and as traffic is not high enough to occupy so many ships, she is sold to Thomas Ward and subsequently scrapped.

1940: Following the outbreak of World War II, Britannic and Aquitania are taken-over for war service.

March 18th 1944: Britannic suffers damage from a magnetic mine, which floods boiler rooms 6 and 5, having just penetrated the inner skin, although the flooding was slightly more than pumps could handle in those compartments. A further explosion occurs off the after port quarter about five hundred yards away, causing concern to her escort of two destroyers, one of which also reported a torpedo sighting. Britannic easily makes it back to Southampton unaided but escorted by the destroyers, having used twenty boilers at maximum pressure to make the trip at twenty knots.

1948: Britannic and Aquitania, having been in service to Canada, are no longer both required. Britannic is laid-up while Aquitania continues service until late 1949.

1950: Following a survey, it is decided to scrap Aquitania. She leaves for Gare Loch, and is completely gone by November 1951.

1950: Following a survey, although Britannic is in slightly better condition having undergone more maintenance during the war than Aquitania, she is very old and outdated, as Aquitania was. She is thirty-five. She goes for scrapping, the process being completed by early 1952.

Best regards,

Mark.
 

Sam Brannigan

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If the Titanic hadn't sunk, I think she would be forgotten today....most people would think only of the two Queens when reminiscing of the days of the great ocean liners. As it happens, the Titanic is seen as a major piece of the romance and heady days of the age precisely because she and her passengers became a focused microcosm of the Edwardian era.

The sheer drama of her sinking is made all the more interesting because of the social mores of the day observed on the ship. If we didn't have a focus like the Titanic I don't think many of us would care. I know I wouldn't, if I'm being totally honest.

The Titanic was a truly beautiful, magnificent ship, but then so were a lot of other ships at the time....Again being honest, how many of you get EXACTLY the same thrill and rush of "wow! how beautiful" when you see the Olympic?

I see the Olympic (and Britannic) as beautiful ships, but they lack that mysterious quality when you look at a photo of the Titanic. Now, take the Titanic disaster out of the equation, hark back to when you first heard of the Titanic and imagine all you had put in front of you was a picture of an ocean liner.....my reaction would have been very different!

What I'm trying to say David, is that in most cases we wouldn't remember the Berengaria or the Ile de France were it not for the Titanic.

I also think that White Stars demise had more to do with the Great Depression than anything else. By the 1930's the three great sisters would have been up against the Queen Mary and the expected arrival of the Queen Elizabeth (not actually in commercial service till after the war but they didn't know that then). The speed of these giants would have made the White Star ships obsolete and it is doubtful whether White Star could ever have raised finance to build ships of similar stature.

I agree, though, that it would be interesting to find out how the loss of the Britannic and the Titanic affected White Star financially, and how this was offset by the arrival of the German steamers to the line after the First World War. I also wonder how White Stars officers and management reacted.

Regards

Sam
 
Jul 9, 2000
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Hi David, had the Titanic never run into grief, I suspect her sister would have been the best remembered of the two as she was the lead ship of her class. As it was. the Olympic was a very popular and successful ship in her time, being fondly and affectionately remembered as the Old Reliable.

Going over Mark's speculative timeline, I can't help but wonder how things might have been different had all three sisters survived to World War Two. Likely as not, all three would have been pressed into service as transports. There was a big need for such in that conflict.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 

Dave Hudson

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Mark,
I love the timeline. That's what I meant when I started the thread. What about a timeline in which all three sisters survive the war?
Sam,
I agree that Titanic would not be remembered today. I'm merely asking what you think would have happened to her and White Star had she not have sunk. True, White Star's downfall was mostly caused by the depression, but Cunard was equally hit hard. The only reason that Cunard pulled through was because it was the most popular line of the day. Had Titanic not have sunk, perhaps White Star would have held that position. Also, who says that the Queens would even have been finished. White Star had her own 1000 footer on the way and perhaps she might have reigned supreme and hull 534 would have been scrapped. Michael,
I disagree that Olympic would have been the best remembered. I think that Gigantic would have been the most memorable. Had the Lusitania had not have sunk, we would remember Mauritania more, because she was faster. Similarly, we remember Majestic more that Berengaria because she was larger.
David
 
Jan 5, 2001
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I love the timeline. That's what I meant when I started the thread. What about a timeline in which all three sisters survive the war?

I might just do that.

BTW, apparently only the Queen Mary in the 1930s made a real profit; Normandie was so expensive and half-full cause she was too luxurious; Europa and Bremen lost passengers due to anti-German feelings; Conti di Savoir and her sister had the less popular 'sunny southern' route which never really worked.

Best regards,

Mark.
 

Sam Brannigan

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David

I'm pretty sure the British government bailed Cunard out over 534. Cunard was closely linked to the government before, on the construction of the Mauretania and Lusitania.The work on the Queen Mary was held up for a considerable time before an arrangement was made.

If White Star could have built a 1000 footer I'm sure they would have, but the finance wasn't there. Right after the First World War Lord Pirrie still hoped and believed that White Star would order replacements for The Titanic and Britannic, and it broke his heart when White Star finally scotched the idea. The later White Star motor ships were on a much smaller scale and as a private company it was impossible to garner any government assistance to keep up with Cunard.

The market was also changing. Although immigrant trade to the US was still big, it wasn't as big or lucrative as it was at the turn of the century, making it even more difficult to raise the money to build super liners.

Regards

Sam
 
Jul 9, 2000
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Hi David, maybe or maybe not on which of the sisters would have been best remembered. In the end, it would have depended on the whims and fads of a very fickle public. Lead ships of any class tend to get most of the attention unless something happens to one to give it a special notoriety. Ask the Lusitania and the Titanic
wink.gif


Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 
Jan 5, 2001
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Modified Britannic timeline with all three sisters:

1921: Britannic returns to service following conversion to oil after Olympic at Harland & Wolff.

1922: Titanic returns to service following oil conversion and extensive refitting.

1923: Although White Star had not lost such a large vessel during the conflict, the HAPAG Bismarck falls under their ownership as reparation for several smaller ships. Her sister Imperator went to Cunard, (to be Berengaria) while Vaterland was being refitted for Atlantic service in the USA for the United States Lines. White Star’s express service is complete: Olympic, Titanic, Britannic and Majestic. Commodore Bertram Hayes transfers to Majestic after a little over a year on Britannic.

1924: Britannic makes her fastest crossing Eastbound, covering 3,150 miles from Ambrose to Cherbourg in five days eleven hours and nine minutes, a speed of some twenty-four knots, aided by the current.

1925: During an Eastbound passage, Titanic clocks-up 28 knots due to an extremely favourable three knot current and favourable wind behind her. She overtakes Mauretania for four hours.

1925: In a severe storm, a wave crashes over Britannic’s foredecks, breaking the B-deck stateroom windows and filling the five damaged cabins with green water, although one cabin door bursts and floods the forward companionway. The damage is temporarily repaired, but permanently solved during the 1926 overhaul. Fortunately, none of the passengers were hurt although one lost a picture book containing photographs of Charlie Chaplin, Douglas Fairbanks and Mary Pickford, plus P. Rockefeller, travelling on Olympic (‘The Film Star Liner’) in 1921. It was badly damaged.

1926: Aboard Titanic at Southampton, fire breaks out. The blaze occurs in the forward cargo hold, but repeated steam injection has little effect and the port’s fire-fighting facilities have to be called-upon. The blaze is brought under control after five hours, but causes structural damage at F-deck and G-deck level, forcing cancellation of her next voyage and a lengthy refitting. During the refitting, as with Majestic, Titanic’s third class accommodation is reduced but improved in standard, with the addition of far more bathrooms.

May 1927: Britannic undergoes overhaul. Her third class accommodation is improved considerably; hospital relocated to the same area as Olympic, while the hospital is replaced by a cinema and the smoke room above, and general room are refurbished extensively. Second class’s aft enclosed promenade on the port side becomes a ‘sidewalk’ promenade café, to compliment that on the first class promenade deck.

The BoT inspection notes Majestic is suffering from ‘severe extensive structural breakdown.’

December 1927: Olympic undergoes overhaul, refitted with a cinema in the first class lounge, extra private baths and general improving of accommodation.

Early 1928: Majestic undergoes major refitting, her forward promenade is glassed-in.

Slight repairs are completed to several small cracks in Britannic’s forward starboard plating, originally replaced during 1917/1918 following her striking a mine on November 21st 1916 with the result of serious extensive structural damage. The repairs had been originally completed in a hurry and these cracks had come to light following a minor collision, and denting in that area, between Britannic and Baltic, the latter travelling at four knots following a ‘full astern’ order. Baltic’s passengers report that they were all awoken by a tremendous shaking, which one likened to the San Francisco earthquake, and which broke crockery and damaged furniture toward the stern. Britannic's number three forward hold was badly flooded, although the second hold was kept reasonably dry by pumping.

February 25th 1928: Douglas Fairbanks reports that some personal items have gone missing from his private promenade on the port side of B-deck. Enquiries reveal a Steward to have taken the items, which are unearthed during a search. Further details are not made public.

White Star commissions Harland & Wolff to construct the 1,000-foot 60,000+ ton liner Oceanic at Belfast. To be diesel-electric powered, she is to have a service speed of 25 knots, but with a capability for doing as much as 30 knots.

November 1929: Britannic is shaken by the underwater earthquake while crossing the Atlantic in the opposite direction to Olympic, which also suffers.

January 1930: Britannic beats Olympic’s pre-war record of 24.2 knots Eastbound for one day, logging 24.3 knots aided by the current.

1930 — 1932: Olympic, Britannic and Majestic make occasional cruises from New York while there between crossings, and bank holiday cruises, but Titanic proves very popular on an extended cruising program.

Britannic makes her first cruise in 1931.

May 1933: In a severe Atlantic storm, Britannic’s A-deck promenade windows on the port side are damaged; seventeen of the thirty-eight odd windows are smashed, the promenade partly flooded, while the bridge wing is damaged and the forward port gantry davit and its six boats are damaged, two of the boats being smashed to pieces.

Following the reconditioning of her engines, Olympic is performing better than ever before.

August 1934: Signs of strain are showing on the Britannic’s A-deck supports beneath the aft starboard gantry davits, in addition to the aftermost port set. The supports undergo strengthening, but otherwise her hull survey is satisfactory, as Olympic’s is for 1934 following hull repairs in 1931.

January 1935: Olympic, Britannic and Majestic make far more cruises as the depression begins to lift.

April 1935: Majestic and Titanic are placed on a two-ship Mediterranean service, following extensive refitting and modernisation of both ships.

The 60,000-ton Oceanic is launched, following construction delays due to problems finalising the design of her propelling machinery.

The plan is for her initially to join service with Britannic on the express New York service, while Majestic will be scrapped and Olympic will join Titanic on the Mediterranean cruise service.

April 1935: Majestic is taken out of cruising, but as her hull construction was always considered inferior she is laid-up and later sold to the scrappers.

1936: At the last-minute, Majestic is sold to become a cadet training ship to the navy. Olympic is laid-up for the year, while Britannic cruises the Mediterranean with Titanic as the Oceanic is attracting a huge following, which leaves other ships half-empty due to the still-low levels of Atlantic traffic. A few slack rivets are found and repaired in Britannic’s hull.

Mid-1937: Cunard and White Star merge to form the White-Star Cunard Line, White Star controlling fifty-five percent of the new company. Cunard’s new 80,000-ton liner is completed to sail with Oceanic, on the express service to New York.

1937: Olympic makes several cruises following a slight refitting, following Britannic being laid-up for a refit in 1936. Britannic is fitted with new propellers, giving her a service speed of 24½ knots, but she will actually run at 22 knots for cruising with a considerable fuel saving.

1938: As Britannic is performing better with her new propellers, giving her a 2½-knot speed increase or a reduction in fuel costs if running at the original speed, Olympic is fitted with the same propellers: two twenty-foot four-bladed wing screws (running at 78 r.p.m.) and a central five-bladed sixteen-foot-nine-inch screw (running at 169 r.p.m.). Britannic’s speed is now 24½ knots, with a possible maximum of twenty-six, although twenty-four is usually maintained.

June 21st 1939: Although Olympic has cruised since 1937 with Titanic and Britannic, she is now twenty-eight years old and as traffic is not high enough to occupy so many ships, she is laid-up. Britannic and Titanic remain cruising the Mediterranean.

1940: Following the outbreak of world war 2, Titanic and Britannic are taken-over for war service. The Olympic joins them in 1941.

1942: Titanic suffers a breakdown while approaching Southampton, in her starboard engine, forcing her to steam at a slower speed. It takes five months to repair due to the war time scarcity of supplies.

March 18th 1944: Britannic suffers damage from a magnetic mine, which floods boiler rooms 6 and 5, having just penetrated the inner skin, although the flooding was slightly more than pumps could handle in those compartments. A further explosion occurs off the after port quarter about five hundred yards away, causing concern to her escort of two destroyers, one of which also reported a torpedo sighting. Britannic easily makes it back to Southampton unaided but escorted by the destroyers, having used twenty boilers at maximum pressure to make the trip at twenty knots.

1948: Britannic and Titanic, having been in service to Canada, are no longer both required. Britannic is laid-up while Titanic continues service until late 1949 with Olympic.

11.40 p.m., April 15th 1950: Titanic strikes an iceberg in the Atlantic, severely damaging her double bottom and causing flooding to her forepeak, holds 1 and 3, and boiler room 6. Pumping keeps the damage barely under control, but the ship is able to return to Southampton aided by tugs. As a result of the collision, a SOLAS conference is convened to recommend improvements to safety at sea.

April 29th 1950: Following a survey of the thirty-eight-year-old ship, it is decided to scrap Titanic. She leaves for Inverkeithing, and is completely gone by November 1951.

1951: Although both ships are ageing, Olympic and Britannic are placed on a service to Australia transporting emigrants, along with the motor ship Georgic, which had been commissioned in 1932. Olympic is modernised extensively.

1954: As Georgic had been never fully restored from wartime damage, she is scrapped.

1955: Olympic undergoes engine maintenance, her starboard engine in particular. For four months, she undergoes further hull repairs.

1958: Due to diminishing demand on the Australian run, Britannic is retired and scrapped, being gone by 1960. Olympic had undergone more extensive maintenance and modernisation, which is the prime decision, although it cannot be denied that both vessels are showing extensive signs of ageing, Olympic being forty-seven.

1961: Olympic is taken-out of service on the Australian run, and laid-up at Southampton.

1963: Olympic, undergoing further modernisation and the addition of a more extensive air-conditioning system than that fitted previously, is placed on a service to the Mediterranean, cruising for six months of the year. As she proves very popular, as a one-class ship, regularly carrying her full complement of 900 passengers despite her age, the service is extended.

1967: Sea travel undergoes further troubles. Due to aeroplane competition, Oceanic and Majestic (the re-named 80,000-ton Cunard flagship) are retired. Majestic goes to Long Beach, California, to become a floating hotel.

August 21st 1968: Following a visit to Southampton, Liverpool, Belfast and Cherbourg, where re-unions of previous passengers and extensive celebrations occurred, Olympic leaves Liverpool for Long Beach, California, to become a floating hotel, aged fifty-seven. She has steamed seven million miles, carried three million people, and earned the nicknames ‘Old Reliable,’ ‘Film Star Liner,’ and ‘Old Granny.’ Among those seeing her off is 100-year-old Charles Bartlett, who had first commanded Britannic in 1916.

1988: Olympic's and Majestic's ownership is turned-over to a new company.

2001: Record profits are announced from Olympic and Majestic.
 
Jul 9, 2000
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Wow doesn't even begin to describe this. Now you have an outline for a novel of epic preportions. Hope you go for it Mark. I'd buy it in a second!

Would that any of the Olympics had survived so long as to become a museum!

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 

Dave Hudson

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Mark

That is great! Would Olympic be as she was when delivered to Long Beach, or would they covert her to her 1911 (or 1920's) decor? Did the sisters retain their dummy stacks during their "extensive modernization"?

David.
 
Jan 5, 2001
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The stacks would be replaced with new ones supported from the inside, looking like the old stacks with the old stays. Queen Mary had new stacks, and has been around for over sixty years.

It's hard to decide whether she would be converted to 1920s, 1911 or 1930s decor. In order to keep the ship afloat into the 1960s, she has needed extensive changes for new regulations, etc., new bridge equipment, radar, (the bridge was completely enclosed in 1932/33), changes to accommodation during the emigrant run and trooping service for the second time...

Aquitania sailed for about ten years longer than Olympic did, being placed on the Canadian emigrant(?) service after WW2, but during the war she was not maintained as peacetime would dictate, sailed in waters she was not designed for, and I suspect had quite a few mechanical problems, although I haven't been able to look at her surveys 1936 - 1950. There's one story that her funnels were heavily-corroded needing replacement, bulkheads were literally rusting through in places, and that in late 1949 a piano actually crashed through a deck which gave way. I am not sure that these stories are entirely truthful, but I can understand she was extensively ageing. After undergoing survey, Cunard said something like (from memory):


Quote:

'After full consideration of all relevant circumstances, it has been decided to withdraw the Aquitania from active service.'





That implies to me at least she would have needed extensive modernisation to even become operatable in peacetime services, let alone be competitive; she was, after all, from 1914 design. I am not saying she was a bad liner, she was a fine vessel ('the old granny') but ships do get so old and have to be replaced. Only through extensive investment, modernisation and re-engineering can they stay viable.

Still, not in a fantasy novel...
 

Dave Hudson

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Remco,

I just ordered the Olympic set. I plan on builing all three sisters in order. How are the sets? How do you change the B Deck windows? Do you have to cut the plastic off?

David
 

Joshua Gulch

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David,
Amazing timing there. I just recieved my Olympic set from OLM today. The sets are very nicely detailed. They include new A and B deck siding. Basically, you cut out the B-deck siding, leaving three little "islands" for stability, one on either end and one in the middle. You open up all the windows on the plastic hull and apply the brass siding to that, then add acetate or styrene for the windows. On the A-deck promenade, you have to open up the kit parts for the entire length, removing the Titanic windows and a lot of the stantions, leaving only a few for support. Then you superglue the brass siding to the plastic kit parts and attach to the hull.

I also ordered their Upgrade set to get the correct skylight and outriggers, plus several sets from Tom's Modelworks, which arrived on Wednesday. Both companies take about two weeks for the order to arrive.

What era are you building your Olympic to represent?

Happy modeling!

Josh.
 

Dave Hudson

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Josh,

I'm doing all three as they appeared on thier maiden voyages. I'm bilding my Britannic to be as she would have been had it not been for WW1. Maybe if I can afford two Britannics, I'll do both color scemes. I too ordered upgrade kits. What's "Tom's Modelworks"? I only know of OLM from the Commutator.

Thanks,
David
 

Joshua Gulch

Member
Mar 31, 2001
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David,
Tom's Modelworks is a photoetch brass manufacturer. For the 1:350 scale Titanic, they offer the following sets:
#3511 - Railing set. Includes rails, ratlines, and stairs. $17.50.
#3521 - Window set. Correct and better scaled windows, very nice. $12.00.
#3522 - Bench set. Really nice photoetch benches. $7.50.
#3523 - Misc. Detailing Set. Everything you can think of! Center anchor grate, skylights, compass tower, funnel ladders, crane booms, vent grates, and MORE! $17.00.

Needless to say, I ordered 'em all! And along with the Olympic conversion and the Upgrade sets from OLM, this is turning into a very pricy project!

Josh.
 
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