Ice field blocking Californian from Titanic?


Rob Lawes

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As far as the 'it's ok, Californian would have arrived too late even if they had picked up Titanic's first CQD' school of thought goes, it very much depends on how much value you place on a single life.

Remember those souls clinging to collapsible's A and B and those fished out of the water in boat 14. Californian may not have been able to save everyone but saving someone would have been a start.
 
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Aaron_2016

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I thought Captain Lord said the boilers were ready and they were capable of steaming at short notice? My understanding is that nets (like mail or fishing nets) would have been thrown over the sides of the Californian and the people in the lifeboats (or the people in the water if she came close to the scene) would have climbed up the nets and survived. The Carpathia would then arrive about 2 hours later and the passengers would be transferred over. The Carpathia would not have enough space for 2,200 extra passengers and crew, and possibly the Birma and Virginian would take the rest.


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The Californian issue has never been one of 'could she have saved all'. The Californian issue has to do about seeing a vessel sending up distress signals and failing to go to the aid of that vessel.
I would have to go back to check to see if I have it correct, but didn't one of the persons on the British Investigation say "If Californian had heard, answered and had not failed to have gone to Titanic's aid, most, if not all of the crew and passengers would have been saved." Or words to that effect ?

It does there seem that there would have not been space enough for some 2,200 persons on Carpathia, much less on Californian ?
 
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Thanks, Samuel -
Would there have been even the slightest possibility that " most, or all 2,200 persons" could have been saved by whatever means under the most favorable conditions ?
 
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Ajmal Dar

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I think that by the time the Californian got to the wreck site most of the people in the water would be dead anyway due to exposure to the freezing cold water. Also, a lot of people went down inside the ship. The Mackay Bennett only picked up 306 dead bodies so an awful lot went down inside Titanic. The water was freezing cold and it was a pitch black night with no moon, so I doubt many people could have been fished out of the water alive.

Regards,

Ajmal
 
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I think maybe this is the way the Commissioner was thinking:
Pogo the Possum : "We have met the enemy and he is us."
The Commissioner : "We have met the scapegoat and he is Captain Lord and the Californian."
 
May 3, 2005
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I think that by the time the Californian got to the wreck site most of the people in the water would be dead anyway due to exposure to the freezing cold water. Also, a lot of people went down inside the ship. The Mackay Bennett only picked up 306 dead bodies so an awful lot went down inside Titanic. The water was freezing cold and it was a pitch black night with no moon, so I doubt many people could have been fished out of the water alive.

Regards,

Ajmal
I think the only way "most, if not all of the 2,200 persons could have been saved" would have been if all could have been gotten off the Titanic before it sank, gotten into boats for transfer to other ships, and safely got all safely boarded on those other ships. I believe this has been done in some incidents, but it seemed this would not have been possible under the circumstances of the Titanic incident and it was un-realistic to think it could have been done.
 
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Aaron_2016

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From bits and pieces that I have read on this forum and others. There was also Titanic's fireman George Kemish who said the crew were given - "A promise from the White Star Line of a job for life. I have never had anything from them." He was not a key witness in the destruction of the ship and likely the company felt no reason to keep their promise. Frederick Fleet however was a key witness and this could explain why he served on hundreds of voyages on the Olympic until she was scrapped and then he left the service.

There is also this book written by a relative of Lightoller. I haven't read it but I understand he believed the company paid off key witnesses including Lightoller.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1906263787/?tag=encyclopediat-21


51LutIgpzaL._SX329_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


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>>As far as the 'it's ok, Californian would have arrived too late even if they had picked up Titanic's first CQD' school of thought goes, it very much depends on how much value you place on a single life.<<

Actually, it doesn't. It's about the numbers. Cold, unflinching, unfeeling numbers and this is where one has to deal with the absolutes. The cold equations don't care about life. We do, I take as a given that Captain Lord did as well, but the cold equations do not.

The Californian, balls to the wall, everything to the engines with nothing held back.....hyperdrive engaged...was at best, an 11 knot ship. While I'm not on the same page with Captain Lord's champions that the ship was 19 miles away, I don't think the case for 5 miles can really be made either. Not less than 10 is about right.

By the time they even have a clue what's going on...the first of the socket signals exploding in the air....it's 12:45 on the Titanic. If the Californian had figured it out at once (Not likely) and got underway at once (Not likely) it still would have taken at least an hour to get that and THAT is only if they are doing their best speed without paying any mind to any possible collisions with the ice. (Not likely on that one either!)

At best, they get there....maybe....just in time to watch the ship sink.

Could they have pulled some people out of the water?

Maybe....if they didn't get themselves wrecked in the attempt. Remember, Captain Lord had already had a heart pounding encounter with the pack ice and if he had got the Titanic's distress signals and recognized them for what they were, he would have known that the ice was killing another ship in front of his very eyes.

Does anybody think he would take a reckless gamble on that?
 
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From bits and pieces that I have read on this forum and others. There was also Titanic's fireman George Kemish who said the crew were given - "A promise from the White Star Line of a job for life. I have never had anything from them." He was not a key witness in the destruction of the ship and likely the company felt no reason to keep their promise. Frederick Fleet however was a key witness and this could explain why he served on hundreds of voyages on the Olympic until she was scrapped and then he left the service.

There is also this book written by a relative of Lightoller. I haven't read it but I understand he believed the company paid off key witnesses including Lightoller.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1906263787/?tag=encyclopediat-21


View attachment 40345

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I don't know about Lightoller being paid off, I've never heard/read about that but the rest is not that unbelievable. I understand White Star stopped pay of the surviving crew members on the 15th although the union was able to get them a few more dollars later on. Plus the company that supplied the musicians for Titanic billed some of the family for the uniforms that were lost. Stuff like that sounds cold blooded today. But it still goes on. As far as the job for life statement that could have happened or it could have been something like I was told when I hired on with the utility company. " Do your job, work hard and don't get into trouble and you can do your whole career here. " I guess that could have been interpreted as a job for life. But did backhand under the table deals go on like that back then and today? Absolutely.
 
May 1, 2004
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>>As far as the 'it's ok, Californian would have arrived too late even if they had picked up Titanic's first CQD' school of thought goes, it very much depends on how much value you place on a single life.<<

Actually, it doesn't. It's about the numbers. Cold, unflinching, unfeeling numbers and this is where one has to deal with the absolutes. The cold equations don't care about life. We do, I take as a given that Captain Lord did as well, but the cold equations do not.

The Californian, balls to the wall, everything to the engines with nothing held back.....hyperdrive engaged...was at best, an 11 knot ship. While I'm not on the same page with Captain Lord's champions that the ship was 19 miles away, I don't think the case for 5 miles can really be made either. Not less than 10 is about right.

By the time they even have a clue what's going on...the first of the socket signals exploding in the air....it's 12:45 on the Titanic. If the Californian had figured it out at once (Not likely) and got underway at once (Not likely) it still would have taken at least an hour to get that and THAT is only if they are doing their best speed without paying any mind to any possible collisions with the ice. (Not likely on that one either!)

At best, they get there....maybe....just in time to watch the ship sink.

Could they have pulled some people out of the water?

Maybe....if they didn't get themselves wrecked in the attempt. Remember, Captain Lord had already had a heart pounding encounter with the pack ice and if he had got the Titanic's distress signals and recognized them for what they were, he would have known that the ice was killing another ship in front of his very eyes.

Does anybody think he would take a reckless gamble on that?
You took my thoughts and put them into succinct, reasonable prose. Never think your efforts have been in vain! ;`}
 

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