Ice field

[Jesse D O'Neill]

Was Titanic going full speed in an Field Ice and areas w/ lots of Icebergs? if we look at chart 1 from the senate investigation Prepared by Captain Knap that appears to be the case.

Link to chart one prepared by Knap
http://www.titanicinquiry.org/images/charts/Chart1.gif

other charts include:

A map prepared for the US District court June 25 1915 of all ice reported in the area in April of 1912(Appendix E of a: The ship that stood Still by Leslie reade)

A map Prepared by Birma's Captain (Appendix E, Reade)

A Map Prepared by Foweraker based on Details from Lord's testimony at the British Inquiry (Appendix E, Reade)

A Map by an officer on the Lackawanna (F.E. Townsend) which hand been in the area 4/12/1912 (Pg 129 of Titanic: Sinking the Myths by D.E. Bristow)

all of these maps indicate that if Titanic was not in field ice she was certainly approaching it and in area filled w/ icebergs.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Hi Jesse: How are you doing? I believe the best description of the ice field that Titanic was approaching at full speed on the night of the 14th can be gathered from the collective testimonies of Captains Lord, Moore and Rostron, all of whom were on the scene in the morning when it became light enough to see the full extent. It is interesting that they all seem to say the same thing about the direction of the field and its extent as far they could see.

From Lord and Moore we know the western side of the field ran from NNW to SSE true. From Rostron we know the eastern side was running about from NW to SE near the wreckage. The width of the ice field in the vicinity of the wreckage was from 5 to 6 miles according Moore's estimate, and to the north of that, where the Californian was, it was about 3 miles wide according Lord. From the wreckage area it stretched from horizon to horizon as far as the eye could see. And I believe up where the Californian was stopped, the same was true regarding the extent seen looking north to south.

The southern advance of the field reached down to 41° 16'N according to Rostron. The western edge in the vicinity of the wreckage was at longitude 50° 09.5'W about 7 AM as confirmed by Moore's sun line observation. According to Rostron, the wreckage was 2 to 3 miles from the eastern edge of the field ice when seen after the sun came up.

As far as icebergs are concerned, they were all over the place in the vicinity of the wreckage including many mixed in with that major ice field itself. According to Lord, the larger ones seemed to be to the SE of the wreckage location. From the Carpathia, 25 icebergs of greater than 150 ft in height were counted all around.

 

[Jesse D O'Neill]

Sam

Hello. I'm good. I have read that testimony and took it into consideration when posting this thread, and appeared to me from looking at the map that although Titanic didn't Steam through the Ice field, there is some Pack Ice/smaller fields of ice which she could have possibly steamed through.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Was Titanic going full speed in an Field Ice and areas w/ lots of Icebergs?<<

If I recall correctly, it was established in sworn testimony that she was doing 78 rpm at the time of the accident. If that wasn't quite full speed, the difference really wasn't enough to matter.

 

[Carla Velterop]

Hi Jesse,

I don't think that the Titanic was going full speed, but certainly close to it. I've attached a scan of a magazine I have which talks about icebergs in the Atlantic, you might find it interesting...

Carla

 

[Dave Gittins]

The article is rather amusing. There's never been a policy of destroying icebergs. As the article itself says, it can't be done with conventional weapons. I've seen film of an iceberg being shelled and the results were very limited, to put it kindly.

It's possible to tow icebergs and this is routinely done if an oil rig is threatened. It's a slow business, so ample warning is needed.

In its early years it was not compulsory for ships in the ice region to even contact the Ice Patrol. That ended in July 2002 when the following was added to SOLAS.

"Ships transiting the region of icebergs guarded by the Ice Patrol during the ice season are required to make use of the services provided by the Ice Patrol."

This rule was made partly for safety and partly to force ships flying flags of convenience to contribute to the cost of the IIP. When they arrive in the USA or Canada they get a bill.

 

[Carla Velterop]

>I've seen film of an iceberg being shelled and the results were very limited, to put it kindly<

I suppose that the cold temperature of the ice would also affect the way the weapon worked, maybe even stopping it from working.

Carla

PS. I find the picture of the iceberg on the scan is a bit creepy...

 

[Roy Kristiansen]

Creepy is right!

Carla, I'm sure you know that icebergs are extremely heavy and extremely dense. And because they're not fixed, but floating, they are capable of transferring much of the energy of any impact to the water around them. Because in this instance the water happens to be the Atlantic Ocean, the effect on them from any high-speed projectile, even an explosive one, would be slight. Basically, the explosion would need to be able to overwhelm the energy stored in the iceberg. A nuclear shell would probably be able to do the job, but it would also be regarded as, uh, extreme overkill.

Roy

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>I suppose that the cold temperature of the ice would also affect the way the weapon worked, maybe even stopping it from working. <<

Well maybe, but then the catch here is that icebergs...even the smallest ones...tend to be pretty massive. There's just so much sheer mass there to absorb the energy. The Navy and Coast Gaurd has tried a lot of schemes from black coatings to speed up melting, to charges of thermite being placed. At best, the thermite burns some small holes in the monster and black coatings tend to melt or wash off in short order. When you get down to it, during any season, you have so much ice in the water that even if you could blast them to bits, you still couldn't hope to get them all.

Since you can't really beat 'em, the best way to deal with icebergs is to be aware of where they are, and to make a point of not being where they are.

 

[Dennis Evans]

I am curious from the time Fleet observed the iceberg till the Titanic stuck it how much time elapsed? I read Fleet's testimony with the Senate inquiry and either he was very inexperienced or very concerned to answer the questions posed to him.

 

[Jesse D O'Neill]

Dennis

Thats a question that will always be debated as there are lots interpretations of Fleet's and Lee's testimony. estimates range from 30 seconds to 12 minutes. I myself think 12 minutes is a little on the high side, and from the testimony Fleet's and Lee's think 1-5 minutes is a good estimate.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>I read Fleet's testimony with the Senate inquiry and either he was very inexperienced or very concerned to answer the questions posed to him.<<

I don't think Fleet was inexperienced but "Concerned" may not be that far of the mark. As one of the lookouts on watch at the time the accident occured, he would have made a wonderful scapegoat if somebody with the juice to do so decided to target him and it's unlikely that he was blind to that. If he privaricated and evaded, (And I think it can be shown that he did) it's understandable.

 

[Dennis Evans]

I am fairly experienced with small water craft of 20 to 35 feet when stopping distances are concerned however on a large ship such as the Titanic I am curious about that time between siting and collision. I wonder if any "experienced" seamen can explain the behave of a large ship's forward motion and effects when the forward propulsion is stopped. I know water on smaller craft acts as a brake once the throttle is cut back. If I reach 60 mph on top speed with calm water and cut the throttle my boat will immediatly drop lower in the water and the force of the water on the bow will stop my high speed in a matter of yards.

I can't see a ship with over a couple minutes of notice not be able to throttle down to a stop forward motion.

Can anyone here with some naval experience explain the coasting behavior of large ships when the engines are cut?

 

[Samuel Halpern]

The Olympic took over a 1/2 mile to come to stop by reversing her engines to full astern from an ahead speed of 18 knots during a trial after the Titanic accident (from Wilding's testimony). It took over 3 minutes to get the way off. If the engines are not reversed the ship would go on for quite some distance. I believe Boxhall allowed about 2 miles for this when he worked out his SOS position. I'll need to check on that however.

 

[Mark Chirnside]

Hi Sam,

quote:

The Olympic took over a 1/2 mile to come to stop by reversing her engines to full astern from an ahead speed of 18 knots during a trial after the Titanic accident (from Wilding's testimony).

As an extra tidbit, the Olympic's estimated full speed with the engines going astern was around 14 knots. It might be of some interest for this discussion in that the ship's 'top reverse speed' seems to be faster than commonly supposed. Naturally, there's Wilding's data as to the time needed to stop the ship in this specific instance.

Best wishes,

Mark.​