Icebergs and Field Ice

[Samuel Halpern]

The Titanic and later her lifeboats might have been drifting west with the speed of 3 knots or more. The Californian might have been drifting south east, and then north.

On what basis is this piece of pure speculation built upon?

 

[Samuel Halpern]

I also noted that the captain of the Mount Temple testified he saw the Carpathia 5-6 miles away on the other site of the ice field.

No he didn't. He testified that Carpathia was on the east side of the pack ice and that the pack ice was about 5 to 6 miles in width. He did not say how far Carpathia was from the eastern edge of the field. That we know from Rostron, which at that time was about 4 to 5 miles east of it. Mount Temple was longitude 50° 09.5'W at close to 7am. She was further east than her overnight DR position because, like Carpathia, she was carried eastward by the Gulf Stream current which was running ENE down in latitudes south of about 41° 20'N. No mysteries here.

 

[AlexP]

On what basis is this piece of pure speculation built upon?

It is a speculation, which is based on the testimonies of the eyewitnesses, and on oceanographic situations, which are entirely possible in the area. My speculation accounts for the testimonies which your own speculations cannot explain.

No he didn't. He testified that Carpathia was on the east side of the pack ice and that the pack ice was about 5 to 6 miles in width. He did not say how far Carpathia was from the eastern edge of the field. That we know from Rostron, which at that time was about 4 to 5 miles east of it. Mount Temple was longitude 50° 09.5'W at close to 7am. She was further east than her overnight DR position because, like Carpathia, she was carried eastward by the Gulf Stream current which was running ENE down in latitudes south of about 41° 20'N. No mysteries here.

Senator SMITH.
How near the Carpathia did you get that morning?

Mr. MOORE.
This pack of ice between us and the Carpathia, it was between 5 and 6 miles. She did not communicate with me at all. When we sighted her she must have sighted us.

As you see he responded a direct question “how near the Carpathia did you get that morning?”
He was not asked how wide was the ice field.

And here is more

Senator SMITH.
Does that indicate that the Titanic might have sunk in a different position?

Mr. MOORE.
I do not think it proves anything, as far as my going is concerned, because I must have been at least 5 miles to the westward of where the Titanic sank.

This great field of ice was 5 miles at least between us and the Carpathia, where she had picked up these lifeboats.

 

[Robert T. Paige]

>>I suppose that the cold temperature of the ice would also affect the way the weapon worked, maybe even stopping it from working. <<

Well maybe, but then the catch here is that icebergs...even the smallest ones...tend to be pretty massive. There's just so much sheer mass there to absorb the energy. The Navy and Coast Gaurd has tried a lot of schemes from black coatings to speed up melting, to charges of thermite being placed. At best, the thermite burns some small holes in the monster and black coatings tend to melt or wash off in short order. When you get down to it, during any season, you have so much ice in the water that even if you could blast them to bits, you still couldn't hope to get them all.

Since you can't really beat 'em, the best way to deal with icebergs is to be aware of where they are, and to make a point of not being where they are.

You have to keep in mind that the iceberg is very massive.
Isn't only about 1/8 of the iceberg is over the water and 7/8 of the iceberg is hidden below the water ?

 

[Julian Atkins]

Am I alone in thinking that 'Alex P' is none other than our old friend 'Mila' under a new alias? I can reference 2 other threads where 'Alex P' has posted recently.

 

[AlexP]

No he didn't. He testified that Carpathia was on the east side of the pack ice and that the pack ice was about 5 to 6 miles in width. He did not say how far Carpathia was from the eastern edge of the field.

What about this testimony given by Captain Rostron

At 5 o'clock it was light enough to see all round the horizon. We then saw two steamships to the northwards, perhaps seven or eight miles distant. Neither of them was the 'Californian.' One of them was a four-masted steamer with one funnel, and the other a two-masted steamer with one funnel. I never saw the 'Mount Temple' to identify her.

If one of the steamers was The Mount Temple the distance between the two was still much less than 13.5 miles.

 

[AlexP]

Am I alone in thinking that 'Alex P' is none other than our old friend 'Mila' under a new alias? I can reference 2 other threads where 'Alex P' has posted recently.

The question was not addressed to me, but I hope you do not mind me responding it. If you’ve read the threads I’ve posted recently you should probably know that I’m Mila’s cousin and that I’ve read her unpublished book and that I agree with her speculations in regards to the currents.

 

[Julian Atkins]

'Alex P' you appear to have a very great similarity with Mila's posts; the tone, content, wording, etc, and flitting about from thread to thread.

If you are Mila's cousin, then so be it, and you will be considered as such ie very closely linked to Mila by me at least, if not quite a few others, though personally I think honesty and lack of duplicity is what this forum expects.

Hopefully, you have a better grasp of things than your cousin, and a more open approach, without pursuing certain agendas, though the following suggests otherwise, and remarkably similar to Mila's posts:-

Recommended reading

It seems Alex that you are simply trying to trash the 12-13 mile separation that my work pointed to. OK, but your not being very helpful in offering an alternative. So are you now trying to claim that the lights people saw were various stars of different colors? All the stars and planets that...

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

Cheers,

Julian

 

[Samuel Halpern]

It is a speculation, which is based on the testimonies of the eyewitnesses, and on oceanographic situations, which are entirely possible in the area.

What oceanographic situations have ever document currents running at 3 knots in a westerly direction in that area? And eyewitness accounts are all over the map, for example take this gem:
Mr. BULEY. Yes, sir; bow on toward us; and then she stopped, and the lights seemed to go right by us.
Senator FLETCHER. If she had gone by you, she would have been to your stern?
Mr. BULEY. She was stationary there for about three hours, I think, off our port, there, and when we were in the boat we all made for her, and she went by us. The northern lights are just like a searchlight, but she disappeared. That was astern of where the ship went down.

This pack of ice between us and the Carpathia, it was between 5 and 6 miles.

That is an observation on the width of the pack ice, not how far his ship was from the ice nor Carpathia's distance from the ice on the opposite side. He could have been a mile off and carpathia 4 miles off with the 5-6 mile wide field in between the two. Furthermore, you cannot use what was seen at 5am when talking about a situation seen around 6-6:30am. MT was was not stationary nor was Carpathia between those times.

Julian, I'll let our friend Alex explain it to you about their relationship.

 

[Mark Baber]

Moderator's hat on:

Please end the personality discussion now and leave suggestions of "duplicity" outside.

Moderator's hat off.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Robert, that post from Michael was from 2006.

 

[Julian Atkins]

Mark,

I merely commented that honesty and lack of duplicity is what this forum expects.

Surely you would agree?

I did not, and I was very particular not to do this, to accuse 'Alex P'/Mila of duplicity, merely it would be forum protocol.

Perhaps someone is being a bit too touchy on the 'report' thingy.

Cheers,

Julian

 

[Mark Baber]

No one made a report. Now, back to substantive discussion.

 

[AlexP]

for example take this gem:

Mr. BULEY.
No, sir. We were lying to there. The people in the boat were very frightened that there would be some suction. If there had been any suction we should have been lost. We were close to her. We couldn't get away fast enough. There was nobody to pull away.

And then

She was off our port bow when we struck, and we all started for the same light, and that is what kept the boats together.

So “there was nobody to pull away” or “we all started for the same light”?
This eyewitness contradicts himself, ant that’s why one should not rely on his testimony.

 

[AlexP]

Mr. BULEY.
No, sir. We were lying to there. The people in the boat were very frightened that there would be some suction. If there had been any suction we should have been lost. We were close to her. We couldn't get away fast enough. There was nobody to pull away.

And then

She was off our port bow when we struck, and we all started for the same light, and that is what kept the boats together.

So “there was nobody to pull away” or “we all started for the same light”?
This eyewitness contradicts himself, ant that’s why one should not rely on his testimony.

There are some interesting parts in Mr. Buley’s testimony

Senator FLETCHER.
Did she come toward you bow on?

Mr. BULEY.
Yes, sir; bow on toward us; and then she stopped, and the lights seemed to go right by us.

Senator FLETCHER.
If she had gone by you, she would have been to your stern?

Mr. BULEY.
She was stationary there for about three hours, I think, off our port, there, and when we were in the boat we all made for her, and she went by us. The northern lights are just like a searchlight, but she disappeared. That was astern of where the ship went down.

Two times Mr. Buley said that the lights had gone by them. What did Mr. Buley mean in your opinion? Did he mean that the lights he was watching on his left hand side moved to his right hand side?