In Nacht und Eis

Dec 2, 2000
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>>Plus, in all rights I'm not doing any kind of copyright infringment since the movie was shown on public television in Germany.<<

Which doesn't mean it's not free of copyright. It's not the medium in which it's presented which bears on this but how much time has passed since it was made. Since this is a German film, then some of those laws may apply here.

You may find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_copyright_law to be a useful starting point for any research. It notes the following: "German copyright law had used 70 years after the death of the author, and as the longest term of any member, was chosen."
 
Feb 4, 2007
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To expound on that a little, here is what official German Law states:

Article 65 Joint Authors, cinematographic works

(1) If copyright is owned by several joint authors (Article 8), it shall expire 70 years after the death of the last surviving author.

(2) In the case of cinematographic works and works which are produced in a similar way to cinematographic works, copyright shall expire 70 years after the death of the longest-living of the following persons: the principal director, the author of the screenplay, the author of the dialogues, the composer of the music composed for the cinematographic work in question.

Soooo, it would seem that if one were to find out when Mime Misu (the director) died, and when anyone else listed above keeled over, one may, or may not be in the clear....yet. However! If the makers of the film granted their rights to the producers or producing company (Continental Film), then read on....

Article 94 Protection of Producers of Films

(1) The producer of a film shall have the exclusive right to reproduce, distribute and use for public presentation or broadcasting the video recording or video and audio recording on which the cinematographic work is fixed. The film producer shall further have the right to prohibit any distortion or abridgment of the video recording or video and audio recording which may jeopardize his legitimate interests.

(2) The right shall be transferable.

(3) The right shall expire 50 years after the publication of the video recording or video and audio recording or, if its first legal use for public communication took place earlier, after the latter; however, it shall expire 50 years after production if the video recording or video and audio recording has not been published or legally used for public communication during such period.

So, one might be in the clear now anyway. I present this information for academic consideration only, and do not intend it as advice.

For the full text (in English) of the fascinating 'ins and outs' of German copyright law, see here:

http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/UrhG.htm#89
 
May 27, 2007
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Jason you made my head hurt.
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. I hope Matthew that you can show En Nacht und Eis. I hope they also catch the Jerk who gave you such grief, Matthew.
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Looked over the Film before it was pulled and it looks to be double exposure of the Titanic on the water was used in the sinking. I asked or stated this in an earlier post in this topic. I wonder did they use a photo of the actual Titanic or did they use another ship that looked like the Titanic.
 
Nov 26, 2005
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If you're talking about the "ship" they used in the sinking scenes...I think they built a model just for that purpose. It's clearly a model that hits the iceberg. I would assume that model was probably the same used in the sinking scenes.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>So, one might be in the clear now anyway.<<

The key word being "might."

I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but by the same token, I don't want to see anybody get burned. Copyright law can be a real minefield at times.
 
Nov 26, 2005
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Mike, out of curiosity, in the event that there is still somebody out there with some kind of rights, what would/could they do to me? I always thought youtube got a notice and would remove the video. Are we talking lawsuits, etc also?

Your knowledge is very solid in these areas and I'd love to hear what you have to say.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>Are we talking lawsuits, etc also?<<

Bluntly...yes.

I wouldn't call my own personal knowladge on this all that solid. I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be. The remedies a plantiff may recieve depends a lot on the laws of a given country as well as any international agreements they may be a party to. Suffice to say, IF somebody out there still holds a copyright to this film, if you post it somewhere without permission, they could make a lot of trouble for you.

If all you post is covered by Fair Use, you may be safe but the wise counsel is to never assume anything.
 
Jun 12, 2004
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In short: Before reposting it, research the copyright on this film and see where it stands. Better safe than sorry.

Which does lead me to another question: As long as he doesn't charge, would/could he make copies and give them away? Perhaps those interested in obtaining a copy could simply email their home addresses to Matthew so he could send them each a copy.

Matthew, do you have the means to copy it? That might be better in the long run anyway, since those interested would have their own copies. That is their ultimate goal regarding this film anyway.

Just a couple of thoughts.
 
Nov 26, 2005
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I'm still looking around for copyrights to the film itself, but copyrights change so drastically from film to film of that era. I've mainly been googling.

Another question, this film was (most likely) made by an adult crew back in 1912. What are the chances they'd still be alive? Also, since the film is shown to audiences at THS (so I hear), should I take that as a good thing or a possibly bad thing? Maybe I should contact THS and see where they're standing is.

I was, too, under the impression that films could be duplicated and shared as long as nobody charged $$$.

Mark, just late this year my DVD-r totally conked out on me and I've got a new one (as a birthday gift this 27th, so maybe I can do that. I just want to make sure that no lawyer catches on to me and decides to give me trouble...not that I have anything worth real value for them to take from me anyway. :-S

I'll still be doing some checking up on it and will get back to you all when I can find something concrete on this matter.
 
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Salvatore Barbagallo

Guest
I really would like to see "In Nicht Und Eis", I never seen the film, in YouTube there are the 1943 Titanic and the 1953 Titanic so isn't the copyright the problem (a film made in 1912 is more old that the movies filmed in 1953 and 1943 that are on youtube now), so Matthew Newman, please can you put once again the full movie on YouTube? If not, can you upload the film in some other ways? For example, the P2P.
 
Mar 5, 2001
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Hi Salvatore!

The 1943 and the 1953 Movies are illegal at youtube. That they on a platform like youtube available says not that this is legal.

Copyrights changed from land to land. So i can say that in germany it is illegal to make a copy on you tube. Only if you have the original Filmroll from 1912 then i think its legal.

The movie was send out on an local-tv station in Berlin/Germany in 1998 for one time. Everybody who have a copy from this can not make legal copys of it.

On youtube everyone can post everythink an only if the legal owner tells youtube that this is illegal youtube will delete.

Copyright laws very probably...
 
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Salvatore Barbagallo

Guest
ok, I understand but... the movie was filmed in 1912 and isn't on sale so I can't buy the DVD... what I must to do for see the movie that isn't never released on DVD?

Can you or Matthew or somebody else that own the film put on eMule? Is the only way for preserve this ultra rare movie from the totally lost situation!!!

Bye.
 
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Salvatore Barbagallo

Guest
but the laws were already breaked some months ago because the movie was online for about four months and thousands guys seen the full film.

However if is really not possible to have the film on-line I will try to found it on eBay.
 
Mar 5, 2001
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good idea....anyone breaks the laws and then can everyone do it?

Hmm i think there where some bankroberys in the history.....so if i follow you... it is now legal to make an bankrobery?
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>but the laws were already breaked some months ago because <<

That doesn't justify it.

Salvatore, I appriciate your desire to see the film, however, asking people to do something illegal is not something which is encouraged or permitted on this forum. Please be guided accordingly.
 
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Salvatore Barbagallo

Guest
OK, sorry, I have only another question to do... the movie will came out in DVD in the near future?