Inaccuracies in Andrews' testimony


drjamess

Member
Sep 24, 2019
24
9
13
Maryland
That is indeed correct Mr. Read, he only helped people in the lifeboats (mostly his table companions). And by the way, I am a huge fan of the Titanic CAD plans you made.

Yours sincerely,

Thomas

Indeed, Thomas would NEVER be a part of launching the lifeboats, but we do know from Titanic survivors that until the last he was on deck, throwing deck chairs into the water to help the survivors.

Thomas Andrews died a hero.
 
B

Bob_Read

Guest
Here’s a more interesting question: If Ismay told Captain Smith he wanted the ship to proceed at full speed, maybe by strict rules he could refuse but would he?
 

Thomas Krom

Member
Nov 22, 2017
221
366
108
Coming back to the reason why we are all here by the way,



Does anyone agree with my statements against William Barnes and that he impossibly could be Thomas Andrews Jr in his past life with the claims I made one page ago?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

drjamess

Member
Sep 24, 2019
24
9
13
Maryland
Coming back to the reason why we are all here by the way,



Does anyone agree with my statements against William Barnes and that he impossibly could be Thomas Andrews Jr in his past life with the claims I made one page ago?

No, I do not. He is like the people that claim to be Anastasia or Alexei. A phony.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

Julian Atkins

Member
Sep 23, 2017
1,390
675
188
South Wales UK

I think it is all in the above thread. One really ought to apply the same kind of veracity in examining the evidence, as is often lacking in an analysis of Captain Smith's last movements!

And treat with caution paid for newspaper interviews, same as we treat Ernest Gill's newspaper 'scoop' with considerable caution, and a lot of Bride's newspaper 'scoop'.

Cheers,

Julian
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Rennette Marston

Rennette Marston
Member
May 23, 2020
285
75
63
49
Halifax, Nova Scotia
Dear readers,



I had the honour and privilege to talk to William Barnes (which is not his real name) more than a year ago with an Email and I can assure everyone that he was not Thomas Andrews Jr in his past life since there are many historical inaccuracies in his book. I will write a few notable mistakes down here below in no particular order.

Mistake number 1: Mr. Barnes states in his book that he ate with famous passengers as Colonel John Jacob Astor IV and his wife Madeline, Mrs. Margaret Brown (who he inaccurately calls “Molly”, since we all know that she was nicknamed Molly after her death in October 1932), Major Archibald Butt and Mr. Ismay. Outside Mr. Ismay (who only ate with Thomas Andrews once [1]) none of the people Mr. Barnes named in his book ate with Thomas Andrews. Thomas Andrews Jr ate at the doctors table in the dinning saloon (the large table located on the port side for 12 people) [2] every evening during the voyage. The passengers at the doctors table were Mr. Albert and Mrs. Vera Dick [3], Mr. Frederick and Jane Hoyt, Mr. Henry Anderson (absent on the 14th due the fact that he was at the party given by George Widener in honour of Captain Smith), Mrs. Eleanor Cassebeer [4], Purser Hugh McElroy, Dr. William O’Loughlin (absent on the 14th since he ate with Mr. Ismay in the á la carte restaurant on B-deck) and Dr. John Edward Simpson.



Mistake number 2: during the collision Mr. Barnes he claims he was in bath, he felt the collision, got out of bath, got dressed, made his way to the bridge and bumped Mrs. Straus (who Thomas Andrews Jr never met in real life and he misspelled as “Strauss” and who was most likely asleep in their special stateroom (C-57 in Empire) who tells him about the collision with the iceberg, makes his way to boat deck and walks into the bridge where first officer William McMaster Murdoch is asked by Captain Edward John Smith if the watertight doors are closed while saying (and I quote):

“Are you letting a baby run the ship?”

First of all, Thomas Andrews Jr did not fell the collision or the stopping of the ship, second, the conversation where he claims to have walked into happened around 15 to 30 an estimated seconds after the iceberg hit the ship on the starboard side, thirdly Thomas Andrews Jr respected first officer Murdoch and found him one of the best officers in service of the White Star Line, fourthly if he came to the bridge during this conversation why was he not recalled entering the bridge in the eyewitness reports of Fourth officer Joseph Boxhall and quartermaster Alfred Olliver who were on the bridge when the conversation happened(?), fifthly the quote “Are you letting a baby run the ship?” and the quote (this is another direct quote)“I don’t care how many years he’s got! I told you she’s slow to go! You should have hit it head-on! Now I’ve got to go down and see what’s happening!” does not sounds like something Thomas Andrews would say, it does not match his personality at all and lastly fourth officer Boxhall and Hutchinson suddenly enter the bridge while Boxhall only was given the order to get him after the conversation Barnes claimed that happened when he entered the bridge. It also would be impossible to get out of bath, dress yourself, make your way up to boat deck and walk into a conversation that happened around an estimated 15 to 30 seconds after the collison



Mistake number 3: Mr. Barnes claims Thomas Andrews occupied stateroom A-32. First of all we know A-32 was occupied Hugh Roscoe Rood (who sadly died during the sinking) [5] and second of all we know Thomas Andrews Jr occupied A-36 in Harland and Wolff bedroom B style due the eyewitness report of Thomas Andrews his bedroom steward Henry Samuel Etches. [6]



Mistake number 4: Barnes claimed when he entered “a damaged cargo area” that he saw “severed body parts of a crewmember” and that the “rushing water had also forced heavy crates against the Renault. Firstly the Renault of the Carter family was crated and possibly dismantled, secondly the Renault was stored in the cargo hold meant for cargo or motor cars in the third compartment, this cargo hold was completely inaccessible since there was stairwell leading to it and lastly (which also connects to the second point) how could it be possible that crewmembers were in the cargo hold in the second place if it was completely inaccessible plus the fact that incoming water would not cut a person into pieces as he claims in his book.

Mistake number 5: While stating that the ship has 2 hours to live in a meeting in the chart room he states that Mr. Ismay was presents and does every cheap trick to make him a villain where he states that Ismay only cared about first class passengers and Thomas Andrews slapped Mr. Ismay in the face. First of all, Mr. Ismay stated that he himself did not saw Thomas Andrews Jr during the sinking [7], second of all Mr. Ismay viewed Thomas Andrews as a personal friend (I personally believe that the feeling was mutual) [8], thirdly if Mr. Ismay was slapped in this face it would have been recalled in the inquiry like the incident with fifth officer Harold Lowe at lifeboat number 5.

Mistake number 6: There is nearly no mention of the Guarantee group in his book outside William Parr.



Mistake number 7: William Barnes stated the following on his website (William C. Barnes :: Death of a Titan) and I quote:

“Now I may be dead wrong about this, but the computer test provides a compelling take on what killed Titanic. The only truth is we shall never really know. Finally, Tommie may not have owned a computer, but he did understand vibration in a ship! For example: Cunard’s LUSITANIA had the problem of stern vibration at over twenty two knots, until the builders figured out where to reinforce that section. She took nearly six months to certify because of the problem. Tommie by the way was lent out by H&W as a paid consultant for John Brown Yards.

THE SINKING OF TITANIC

(memories from Tommie’s projection)



Before Titanic sank, she broke in on herself. This way was much more destructive in that it folded in on people. When experts use stress graphs to show the forces working on Titanic’s hull in triangular form, they forget that Titanic was a floating box. She was a box truss design and her plates (also known as strakes) would break along in concert with the box, rather than give way like a welded ship.”



For the short answer for what he claimed is: “My computer tests showcases that the Titanic broke behind the third funnel like in the 1997 James Cameron movie and that the forecastle came out of the water.”

We all know that the V-breakup theory would be impossible and among the fact that the ship broke in two right in front of the third funnel. Outside that, Thomas Andrews only worked for Harland and Wolff and not John Brown’s. I also cannot believe an Edwardian master-shipbuilder/naval architect would trust a computer.

Mistake number 8: Mr. Barnes also believes he had an accent like Victor Garber had in the 1997 movie. We know this is incorrect due the fact Thomas came from the current Northern-Ireland, in-fact we know that Thomas Andrews had an accent with a standard English with a hint of what sounds like a North Antrim or Kilkeel lilt [9]. Not only the accent he represents in his book is incorrect but also his personality does not match Thomas Andrews at all.





For the short, I am under the impression (among with a big part of the Titanic community) that William Barnes was not Thomas Andrews Jr in his past life. And the most interesting part of all, he blames his late editor for ALL the historical mistakes above. This is only the tip (no pun intended) of the iceberg. His book is just another example of anti-Mr. Ismay story (if William Randolph Hearst did not ruin his reputation enough.



Yours sincerely,



Thomas







Sources


[1] American Inquiry

Senator SMITH.

Did you yourself have opportunity to confer with Mr. Andrews during the voyage from Southampton to the place of this accident?

Mr. ISMAY.

No, sir; I did not. Mr. Andrews dined with me one night. We had no conversation, really, in regard to the ship. Indeed, the only plan which Mr. Andrews submitted to me was a plan where he said he thought the writing room and reading room was unnecessarily large, and he said he saw a way of putting a stateroom in the forward end of it. That was a matter which would have been taken up and thoroughly discussed after we got back to England.

[2] Thomas Andrews his personal letter to his wife Helen

From Cherbourg he wrote again to Mrs.[61] Andrews: “We reached here in nice time and took on board quite a number of passengers. The two little tenders looked well, you will remember we built them about a year ago. We expect to arrive at Queenstown about 10.30 a.m. to-morrow. The weather is fine and everything shaping for a good voyage. I have a seat at the Doctor’s table.”

[3] personal account

[4] letter from Mrs. Cassebeer to Walter Lord:

9th November 1955



Have read with great interest "A Night To Remember" April 14th 1912.

As I am a survivor of the S.S. Titanic, I was in officer Pitman's boat. My stateroom was next to Mr. and Mrs. Harper's end. I sat at the table at Dr. O'Laughlin's [sic] left side, with Mr.Thomas Andrews opposite me. Mr. and Mrs. Hoyt sat besides Mr.Andrews, and I think next came a Mr. and Mrs.Lord, and then a Mr. and Mrs. Albert Dick.

My dinner companion was Mr.Anderson who sat right next to me.

When the boat struck the ice berg I was lying in my bed playing with a ball bearing electric candle, I immediately opened my door and ran into the corridor, and going up the stairs to A deck, I met Mr.Anderson my dinner companion. He said to me I have been looking for you. We went up on deck, and there was a tremendous crowd milling around. We could not hear each other speak because they were exhausting steam and playing a siren, so Mr.A. said to me, we better go back to the drawing room. As we walked into the drawing room Purser Mc.Elroy came towards us and told us what to do. Mr.A. asked me if I was frightened, I said "No" not at all.

Mr.A. said to me go down to your cabin and do as Mr.McElroy told us, and come back on deck and remain here where we are standing.

I owe my life to discipline and a pretty dress. If you would like to know about the pretty dress, I would like the opportunity of telling it to you some day soon.

Col.Gracie was an old time friend of mine and my family and he did not tell me the same story of his survival as you have written. Officer Pitman did not order the boat returned to scene of the disaster, he ordered the men to row away as fast as possible to avoid the suction which might have carried us down with the boat sinking.

Mrs.Warren sat right next to Officer Pitman and I sat next to Mrs.Warren.

If it had to be I would not have missed it for anything, and my friends tell me have the heart of Nero. I hope you will be interested in my story and grant me an interview. I am the only survivor that I know of who has the photographs that were taken as we approached the Carpathia. They were given to me by the gentlemen who took them.

[5] The list recovered from Herbert Cave his body (The Cave List)

[6] Bedroom Steward Henry Samuel Etches his eyewitness reports at the American Inquiry:

Senator SMITH.

What apartment did he have?

Mr. ETCHES.

He had a separate cabin, with bathroom attached - the only cabin. There was only one on each part of the after-end of A deck.

Senator SMITH.

What was the number?

Mr. ETCHES.

Thirty-six, sir.

[7] Mr. Ismay his testimony at the British inquiry.

18565. That, your Lordship will remember, is Rowe's evidence. Did you see Mr. Andrews at all between the time of the impact and your leaving the vessel?

- I did not.

[8] A letter of Mr. Ismay written to Helen “Nellie” Reilly Andrews, Thomas his widow.

Dear Mrs. Andrews,



Forgive me for intruding upon your grief, but I feel I must send you a line to convey my most deep and sincere sympathy with you in the terrible loss you have suffered. It is impossible for me to express in words all I feel, or make you realise how truly sorry I am for you, or how my heart goes out to you. I knew your husband for many years, and had the highest regard for him, and looked upon him as a true friend. No one who had the pleasure of knowing him could fail to realise and appreciate his numerous good qualities and he will be sadly missed in his profession. Nobody did more for the White Star Line, or was more loyal to its interests than your good husband, and I always placed the utmost reliance on his judgment.



If we miss him and feel his loss so keenly, what your feelings must be I cannot think. Words at such a time are useless, but I could not help writing to you to tell you how truly deeply I feel for you in your grief and sorrow.



Yours sincerely,

BRUCE ISMAY.

Thank you very much, Thomas.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
May 3, 2005
2,599
291
278
This is admittedly a bit of a nit-pick from a part of (4) "Letter Mrs. Cassebeer to Walter Lord" in a previous post:

Quote: (about noise) "....exhausting steam and playing the siren....."
Which of those is historically correct ?
In ANTR the noise of "exhausting steam" is heard but no "playing the siren" ?
In the 1953 "Titanic" "playing the siren" is heard but no "exhausting steam" ?

Personally I would put my bet on the ANTR version.

My thanks very much also to Thomas !
 

Thomas Krom

Member
Nov 22, 2017
221
366
108
With siren she most likely meant the horn from the whistles since there were no sirens or alarms on-board the Titanic for her passenger accomodation. There was an alarm for the closing of the watertight doors however.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

Milos Grkovic

Member
Aug 25, 2019
75
60
48
Serbia
Yes, I agree with that. Mostly because the passengers did npt understand what's going on at first. They later realised that the ship was sinking.
 
May 3, 2005
2,599
291
278
Yes I agree that she most likely meant "sirens" for the whistles.

But my point was that there was no noise of exhausting steam but a continuous noise of the sirens toward the end of the 1953 "Titanic" movie but the noise of exhausting steam eventually stopped and no sirens were heard in the 1958 " A Night To Remember " movie which leads me to believe this was just one more of the many errors in the 1953 "Titanic" movie.

Thanks again, Thomas
 
May 3, 2005
2,599
291
278
And the Thomas Andrews story is about as real as the Vaghinak Byurat story. :)

It seems to be cobbled together by someone who watched the 1953 and 1997 movies and had dreams about them along with his own phantasies .
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
May 3, 2005
2,599
291
278
With siren she most likely meant the horn from the whistles since there were no sirens or alarms on-board the Titanic for her passenger accomodation. There was an alarm for the closing of the watertight doors however.
Agreed ..If there were no sirens would the horn from the whistles had been sounded continuously during the sinking ?
I've never read anything about that ?
 

Thomas Krom

Member
Nov 22, 2017
221
366
108
And the Thomas Andrews story is about as real as the Vaghinak Byurat story. :)

It seems to be cobbled together by someone who watched the 1953 and 1997 movies and had dreams about them along with his own phantasies .
Glad to see that I am not the only person who thinks that about William Barnes his claims.
Agreed ..If there were no sirens would the horn from the whistles had been sounded continuously during the sinking ?
I've never read anything about that ?
I never heard anyone else mentioning it but I think she most likely misunderstood the escaping steam for the whistles.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
May 3, 2005
2,599
291
278
I find that hard to believe !
IMHO in comparison with "that book" the 1953 "Titanic" movie should have gotten Academy Awards in all categories. LOL

Seriously, though, do you think Thomas Andrew's accent might have been softened or had become even a little less noticeable due to his long associations with his fellow professionals at Harland and Wolfe ? More like both Andrew's and Ismay's might have had similar manners in their speech ?

In Boot Camp a boy from Tennessee (we were all mere boys at that time. LOL ) and I became good friends. But he had the nerve to say to me "You talk like a Yankee !" one time.
And I'm a native born Dallas Texan.

Granted the group I was in during sea duty were looked upon as snobs by some of the members of the Deck Division.
But we didn't talk like those sailors you see and hear in the movies. You didn't notice much difference in speech especially when discussing technical matters. Or maybe we had just gotten used to it and didn't notice it. But we did have one Division Officer who had a very distinct "Bahstun" accent.
 
Last edited:

Thomas Krom

Member
Nov 22, 2017
221
366
108

This is the recording of Thomas Andrews Jr his older brother John Miller Andrews. The accent heard is a hybrid of standard English with a hint of what sounds like a North Antrim or Kilkeel lilt. Thomas would sound identical with only softened clipped tones by some degree. The closest portrayal to this accent is Michael Goodliffe in A night to remember. It does not even come close to Victor Garber his accent in the 1997 movie.

William C Barnes however in his audiobooks portrayals him as a combination of Victor Garber’ (in both accent and delivery) and Scrooge McDuck voiced by Alan Young/David Tennant. Just listen to it if you do not believe me: My Life and Death: A Past-Life Interview with Titanic's Designer: William C. Barnes, Frank Baranowski: 9781887010146: Amazon.com: Books
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Similar threads

Similar threads