Indentified and Unidentified Children

  • Thread starter Alexis N. Marlow
  • Start date
A

Alexis N. Marlow

Guest
I was wondering if anyone could tell me if any children's bodies were pulled from the sea, whether buried again at sea, or forwarded to family for burial. I only found three in my search:
Master Walter John Van Billiard, aged 9(#1)
Master Gosta Leonhard Paulson, aged 2(#4)
Master Anthony William Sage, aged eleven(#67)

Even so, body number 1, supposedly Walter Van Billiard, could have just as well been Filip Asplund(13 yrs.), or Walter's old brother, James William(age ten).

I was just wondering, because I see alot of entries for children reading: ______'s body, if recovered, was never identified. Shouldn't there be entries for children on the recovered body list also? Can anyone help me with this question, and supply me with the name(s) and entry number of any child(ren) who were found but not identified?
Thanks!
Alexis Marlow
 
C

Charlene Vickers

Guest
It's possible the remains of some of the older children might have been mistaken for adults because they were adult-sized. (Given the condition of some of the remains recovered, this is certainly possible.)

It could be speculated that children were less likely to be found, since so many survived and those who didn't stayed below decks.
 
A

Alexis N. Marlow

Guest
But still, it leaves me thinking. What about Loraine Alison? Wasn't it said that she and her parents were last seen smiling on the deck? Unless the suction got them, most likely, they would have tried to swim for safety. And the other families, especially the Rice and Pålsson families, both of whom were swept off the deck into the sea. Most likely that none of these children would have remained unidentified(with an exception of Gösta Pålsson), because they were swept into the sea. Just wondering, why most of the people identified were men and women, when many families with small children did make it topside, but when it was too late. This is a very puzzling question, thanks for your help, Charlene.

Alexis Marlow
 

Dave Gittins

Member
Apr 11, 2001
4,956
206
193
Bill Wormstedt has done a careful analysis of the recovered bodies. His site is at http://home.att.net/~wormstedt/titanic/ I'm not sure, but I think he has data on the proportion of children found as against the number lost.

My feeling is that the number of children found was small in proportion to the number lost. It might just be a matter of their small size and the lack of proper lifebelts.
 
A

Alexis N. Marlow

Guest
Thanks, both of you guys, Its a puzzling subject that's kept me up constantly some nights wondering.
 
A

Amanda Sloan

Guest
Some have stated over the years that young Gösta Pålsson is buried just mere feet from his mother in the grave marked "Unknown Child"... but then again some have to speculated that the body of little Loraine Allison rests there. The world may never know, and so it shall remain as one of the many tragic mysteries of the Titanic.
 

Ben Holme

Member
Feb 11, 2001
714
2
148
Hi Amanda,

I highly doubt that body #4 was that of Lorraine Allison. Although she fits the estimated age of two years, Lorraine Allison was dark-haired and besides, it would have been a little perverse of the Mackay-Bennet crew not to confirm the child's sex.

I believe there are only three plausible alternatives to Gosta Leonard; Eugene Rice, Sidney Goodwin or a Panula child (not too sure about the third). Check out their biogrpahies here on ET.

Regards,
Ben
 
A

Alexis N. Marlow

Guest
I highly doubt that Sidney Goodwin could have been the unknown child. By taking a look at the pictures of his family, one could naturally infer that Sidney was dark haired, just like his parents and siblings.
 
C

Courtney Scully

Guest
Whatever happen with the DNA test with the three unknow ppl that the dug up? I know that the two adluts were too water damged in there gaves to have tests done but the child was not? I think. Does anyone know?I know this is kinda off subject but it's an Unidentified Child.
 
May 8, 2001
1,359
2
166
Courtney. If I am not mistaken, I believe they determined that it was Eugene Rice. Although it is a closed chapter, in a small way I am sorry that they know, as he bacame a symbol of ALL lost and unknown children, and a glimmer of hope to all the families that held out a small chance that it was "their" baby.
I haven't heard anymore either. Anyone out in the area, have they had any more updates or articles on it? Have they uncovered the annonymous people who asked for this to be done, and their intentions?
Colleen
 
C

Courtney Scully

Guest
Coolies thanks for the help Colleen.
I got another qustion thought even thought I know the answer I just wanna write it. How come they only undug three bodies instead of all on the unknown ppl by taking DNA test on them soo many unanswered qustions would be sloved.
 
May 8, 2001
1,359
2
166
Courtney. It was a tough job for them to get the OK to do tests on these three bodies, including, and most importantly, some proof of WHY they had the right to do so, beings they had to be a relative. They had to prove that they believed with some evidence that they posses, somehow these 3 people were also related and just unmarked (or mismarked). When you get into legalities, it gets real sticky. Now, this set a precedence, meaning that if it were to have been 100% successful, the chances would be that more would have come forward and done the same, and legally the path had been paved.
It wasn't met with allot of favoritism, and even I had mixed feelings about it, because like I mentioned earlier, the unknown child had become a symbol for ALL the children who perished. Although it is a great relief for a single family line, it leaves many others without hope. RMSTI is having a hard enough time with salvage of items FROM Titanic, but there would be a downright rebellion if some company came in and literally started rifling through so n so's coffin. I don't believe that very many here would stand for it. I know I would be outraged!
Sincerely
Colleen
 
J

Jan Kite

Guest
The unknown child was a two year old boy pulled from the sea by the Mackay Bennett. The crew clubbed together and arranged for his burial. With todays technology re DNA some relatives are pursuing this method to trace dear ones and putting names to unmarked headstones.What condition the remains are in now would determine if this is practical. Regards to all Jan BTS
 
May 8, 2001
1,359
2
166
Hello Jan. So there ARE other families pursuing the same method. I had not heard any more after the last three. Of course where I am situated in California, I hear very little about it.

The story of the unknown child is one that breaks my heart, and it was fitting that there were so many that stepped in and said they would like to pay to bury him. In light of our own day tragedy, it is comforting to see that in many ways we haven't changed as human beings.

If the DNA tests are done with the families blessing and loving care, then their intentions are honorable, personal and deep seated. That is quite different in my eyes than a company doing it for glory and recognition.

Thank you Jan. I appreciate the update!
Sincerely,
Colleen
 
A

Alexis N. Marlow

Guest
Another addition for an unknown child:

NO. 328. - FEMALE. - ESTIMATED AGE, 14. *(15) - HAIR, GOLDEN BROWN. FOUR FOOT SIX INCHES

CLOTHING - Lace trimmed red and black overdress; black underdress; green striped underskirt; black woolen shawl; black slippers.

NO MARKS - Very dark skin; refined features.

THIRD CLASS.

I wonder if anyone else realizes the fact that this could be Nourelain (Laura) Boulos. She was the only female child of the Foreigner catagory to perish. It does make sense. She was nine years old, and that makes sense that she would be about 4'6. I have a friend whose husband had family links in Syria, and their daughter is nine and about 4'7, so perhaps this is the body of little Nourelain. If so, and if she was not buried at sea, wouldn't it be proper to provide her with a gravestone or something to commemorate her memory?
 
Nov 11, 2005
378
1
86
THE UNKNOWN CHILD IS MY G-G-G- GRANDFATHER, EINO VILJAMI PANULA!!!, DNA WAS TESTED BETWEEN MY GRANDMA MAGDA AND A WRIST BONE OF EINO'S ALSO THE 328 I THINK IS HILENI ZABOUR.
 
Dec 6, 2000
1,480
3
166
Hello Hildur,

You say Eino Viljami Panula is your g-g-g-grandfather. - As Eino left no descendants that is not possible. You have to be related in some other way.
 
Nov 11, 2005
378
1
86
sorry, about the caps, it is different where i am from. Eino's mother's sister is my grandma's grandma.That makes Eino my great-grea-great uncle, i was confused.
 
Dec 6, 2000
1,480
3
166
Hello Hildur,

As I understand it since Eino's mother and your grandmother's grandmother were sisters, you are a 4th cousin. Eino and your grandmother's mother or father were 1st cousins.