Interesting item up for auction concerning Ismay and ship Samson


adrian waring

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Oct 31, 2005
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Any thoughts,

Titanic remarkable letter on a commemorative Titanic postcard dated Sunday June 3rd 1912 to 'Dear Ismay' : 'ref our conversation I now have statements from the crewmembers of the '(?)Samson' who saw the T's lights but could not help as she had illegal ?seals on board. The crew are v distressed. You must mention this at the hearing tomorrow . Otherwise 'L' will be crucified...' The text of the letter is written in blue crayon and the signature (initials) is indecipherable. There is a closed tear to the bottom right hand corner of the letter which has been repaired with adhesive tape which has somewhat discoloured indicated that the repair was carried out some years ago. We cannot vouch for the authenticity of this card given the indecipherability of the signature and the medium with which the message has been written. As it stands however, if it is authentic, this card could be a major new piece of evidence in the continuing story of the phantom ship which, it is claimed, was seen by the crew of the Titanic on the night of the disaster and which apparently turned away and left the ship to its fate. This card purports to have been sent to Bruce Ismay, Managing Director of the White Star line on the eve of his appearance at the Board of Trade Enquiry into the disaster. During his testimony he was questioned closely on the identity of the 'phantom' ship, as suspicion had fallen on the 'Californian' a vessel owned by the Leyland Line. If this card is authentic then it will provide once and for all the evidence as to why Ismay was adamant in his testimony that the identity of the ship was not the Californian. During his evidence Ismay was questioned about the light toward which his lifeboat pulled. Ismay responded : 'If you will excuse my saying so, I do not think it was a steamer at all; I think it was a sailing ship we saw.' Lord Mersey, head of the enquiry cut in : 'Am I to understand that you do not think it was the Californian ?' Ismay replied : 'I am sure it was not.' This card could therefore provide evidence to support Ismay in his assertion as well as provide a reason as to why a vessel, knowing of the distressed state of the Titanic turned away - because it had illegal cargo on board.
 
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Timothy Trower

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Aside from the Samson having been proven to be no where near the Titanic that night, I'm personally wondering where this card is offered for sale.

Thanks!
 

adrian waring

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Oct 31, 2005
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It's not an ebay auction but an auction house in the UK.I have access to auction catalogues throughout the world.I search daily for items of interest such as Titanic and then if it's of interest go after it.

I will see if I can get a pic but might be a week or so.

Adrian
 

Eric Longo

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Aug 13, 2004
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Hi,

All that "code" and abbreviation and an undecipherable signature in crayon yet it says "Dear Ismay"?

Hmm.

Best,
Eric
 

Eric Longo

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Hi Again,

I must be going blind - this "letter" is on a commemorative Titanic postcard too? Mullock Madeley was the auction house - this was listed in the April '07 catalog as lot 361A with an estimate of just 300-500 (and with that supposed content!), yet does not appear listed in the prices realized. Some of the autographs there appear...bad.

Best,
Eric Longo
 

Paul Lee

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Aug 11, 2003
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Written in crayon?? Says it all! Leslie Harrison's advisors told him in the 1960s that the Samson was a no-story based on "Cape Hatteras" and the territorial water story, but he was still convinced that this was the solution to the story, according to his records stored in Liverpool. Or, the surviving records in Liverpool. A lot of letters are "missing". Make of that what you will.
 

adrian waring

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Oct 31, 2005
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I think it's bogus as well,why in crayon.It's the same auction house listing it again then.They do have some other things of interest.

I find more questionable items at auction concerning Titanic than anything else, I collect,have interest in or deal in.

I will get a jpeg from them and post it here.

I just aquired what where supposed to be Titanic photographs from Bonhams in London turned out to be the Lusitania.Oh well

Adrian

Adrian
 

Paul Lee

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Aug 11, 2003
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First the Hitler diaries, then the Mussolini diaries, then the Jack the Ripper diary and now...gentlemen, let me present, the Ismay crayon postcard.

Not in the same league is it?

Might appeal to the Lordites though, if they have a book deal coming up.
 

Eric Longo

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Hi Aiden,

The overall stupidity of the item is more telling than the crayon by far.
I thought you said the photos you bought turned out to be Aquitania? If we are talking about yet another set of photographs you might want to get a better idea what these ships look like before bidding on/winning auctions. If you have interest in selling the Lusitania photographs please contact me.

Best,
Eric Longo
 
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sashka pozzetti

Guest
Is 'indecipherability' a word!!!? The blue crayon may actually be a soft water-based blue pencil, which were used by many, including Post Office employees. This sounds like it has fakeability :)
 

adrian waring

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Oct 31, 2005
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Eric,
Sorry you are correct I added the wrong letter they are the Aquitania.

I have bought many items at Bonhams before over the years and never had a problem with items not being what they are supposed to be.

Plus Bonhams are one of the better auction houses.I did email them about it and the guy that attributed them to the Titanic is on vacation.

The other items where of interest so I felt I still did get a good buy.

I regularly flip items for profit on ebay but always make sure that what I have is legit before I offer ity for sale.
Adrian
 
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sashka pozzetti

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I would be interested to know how a well known Auction house that specializes in such things could confuse the Aquitania with the Titanic. Do post the explanation! :)
 

Eric Longo

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"the guy that attributed them to the Titanic is on vacation." - that puts it nicely! ;)


Hi Sashka,

I was wondering the same thing ;)
See my post above.

Best,
Eric Longo
 

adrian waring

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Oct 31, 2005
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I will when he get's back,but it's not there speciality.Also they did have pics of the lot on the site and 2 where the supposed Titanic pics.If I had done my due diligence on them I would have realised it was not the Titanic.It would not have been the 1st time I have found an error in a listing and had them corrected it.However I have at times found something listed wrong that was in my favor.So it's not always prudent to make an auction house aware of a mistake.

My speciality are books ideally before 1800 and not Titanic items.

Adrian
 
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sashka pozzetti

Guest
Now that you don't need an exact provenance for something to be of the Titanic, just something that is similar, i will have a look round the house to see if i can discover any new artifacts. i am sure I have a Titanic pen from the Queen mary gift shop, a Titanic jigsaw with a picture of the QEII, and a Titanic menu that has 'Lusitania' accidentally printed on it, and different food listed. :)
 

Eric Longo

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Hi Adrian,

I wonder then about the "mistakes" in the threads I linked to. What do you think?

Best,
Eric
 
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sashka pozzetti

Guest
It is not your fault, and whilst it was worth a bid without seeing them, the Auction house is obliged to make some effort to ensure the description is accurate. If they did not know which ship it was, it should have said so. I would just ask them what evidence the catalogue entry was based on. If it was information provided by the seller, it should have said this in the catalogue. ! :)
 

adrian waring

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Oct 31, 2005
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One thing within the last few weeks I have learned is not to trust anything any auction house has to say about Titanic items unless they have the ability to fully document the history of the item.

That's why generally I stick to books,such as the Illustrated London News of 1912 or some other newspaper that's yearly bound.That's not likely to be forged.It also amazes me how many items come up that relate to the Titanic.

I would still like to find out for sure if the Titanic Calendar is legit or not.I do have an original Titanic Fund check.

I just wish I had some of the artifacts from my Great Great granndfather.My relatives recall getting money from the Titanic Fund.I was born in Liverpool and my family has been in that area for generations.

[Moderator's note: This post and the 18 others above it were originally posted in another topic, but have been moved to the one which is discussing the same subject. JDT]
 

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