Interesting real-time animation of the sinking
- Thread starter Ergath
- Start date
The list is wrong at times, the ship to much down in the water.
Can not remember that anyone mentioned how the stern was "shacking" and the falling back would have sure has sunk Boats A&B which were floating close by.
The engines stop to quickly, the closing of the WTD is too slow and the orders are given as if the officers were half asleep....
Can not remember that anyone mentioned how the stern was "shacking" and the falling back would have sure has sunk Boats A&B which were floating close by.
The engines stop to quickly, the closing of the WTD is too slow and the orders are given as if the officers were half asleep....
The hard-a-port order is given way too early, and did Murdoch really see the iceberg to give the hard-a-starboard order before the three bells from Fleet?
Indeed, the WTD are closed too late and the commands were "given as if the officers were half asleep", but I do think the list is portrayed correctly (at least until the ship breaks).
And finally, where is the "full speed astern" order? It must have been given just before or during the collision, but it's never shown in the animation.
Indeed, the WTD are closed too late and the commands were "given as if the officers were half asleep", but I do think the list is portrayed correctly (at least until the ship breaks).
And finally, where is the "full speed astern" order? It must have been given just before or during the collision, but it's never shown in the animation.
The "full speed astern" order was not given. (I guess this will start another endless debate, however I will leave the comment as it is.)
The guess that Murdoch spotted the iceberg as the first one is an old one and shared among some researchers. It is based on some of the testimony from Hichens and especially from this statement made by Fleet. However Fleet did not repeat it but gave two other versions when asked again.
Mr. FLEET. Well, she started to go to port while I was at the telephone.
Senator SMITH. She started to go to port?
Mr. FLEET. Yes; the wheel was put to starboard.
Senator SMITH. How do you know that?
Mr. FLEET. My mate saw it and told me. He told me he could see the bow coming around.
The port list is partly wrong and shown to have been there at boats where no port list was present (like Lifeboats Nos. 9, 11 & 13).
The guess that Murdoch spotted the iceberg as the first one is an old one and shared among some researchers. It is based on some of the testimony from Hichens and especially from this statement made by Fleet. However Fleet did not repeat it but gave two other versions when asked again.
Mr. FLEET. Well, she started to go to port while I was at the telephone.
Senator SMITH. She started to go to port?
Mr. FLEET. Yes; the wheel was put to starboard.
Senator SMITH. How do you know that?
Mr. FLEET. My mate saw it and told me. He told me he could see the bow coming around.
The port list is partly wrong and shown to have been there at boats where no port list was present (like Lifeboats Nos. 9, 11 & 13).
Having listened to the commentary for this I just want to say that the creators of the video are very open and aware with the fact that this video is flawed in some areas, like the explosion that some reason occurs on funnel no 2, lighting, water physics, things like that. They say that they were busy at work on Honor and Glory and the anniversary snuck up on them. So they cranked out this video within a week and just barely got as much done as they managed to get done. So basically, it's a work-print. A pretty darn good work-print at that, I've watched it a few times as it is.
For the list being wrong, is there something out there new that I've missed that shows new angles? As a pedestrian enthusiast, the last legitimate update was all the Final Word stuff, at least for me. Again, I might have missed something, but I thought I was pretty up to date.
For the list being wrong, is there something out there new that I've missed that shows new angles? As a pedestrian enthusiast, the last legitimate update was all the Final Word stuff, at least for me. Again, I might have missed something, but I thought I was pretty up to date.
If I had known this was a WIP I wouldn't have been so severe. I guess the animation will be improved by the time the game is published.
If you are only going by what is shown in TV then yes.
There are other Researchers who did not appear in TV or present their Research in such a public.
Hello Ioannis!
Hopefully this forum is meant to find the truth and to record the factual events so that those who come after us can know what really happened. This can only come about by debate that ends in consensus.
You wrote "The Full Speed Astern order was not given". You can most certainly say that but what evidence do you have that proves for certain that it was not?
You also wrote "I guess this will start another endless debate".
In reality, there is absolutely nothing to debate because there is nothing to show that Boxhall was lying or mistaken. i.e. to show that a FULL ASTERN order was not given.
Sure! There's plenty of evidence from Dillon and Scott concerning engine movements but Scott only saw one movement on the ER telegraph before the WT doors engaged. Dillon did not see any of the actual orders on the ER telegraphs.
Any orders seen by Scott after the first STOP order came after he was able to return to the main engine room and that was after the WT doors between the Turbine Room and the Main ER were raised to enable the pumping operations to begin. Smith or any other responsible Master would not have allowed these WT doors to be raised until the ship had come to a complete halt.
Unless you can see the telegraph when in a ship's engine room during manoeuvres, you can only be sure of three things...
The engine shafts have stopped turning.
The engine shafts are turning ahead...or
The engine shafts are turning in reverse.
It follows that you cannot know what the initial engine order was. Nor can you know if the engines reached the maximum rpm for that order before it was superceded by a subsequent order.
Do you agree?
TO summarise:
How can you or anyone else be sure that a FULL ASTERN engine order was not given unless there is graphic evidence to prove it?
Jim C.
Hopefully this forum is meant to find the truth and to record the factual events so that those who come after us can know what really happened. This can only come about by debate that ends in consensus.
You wrote "The Full Speed Astern order was not given". You can most certainly say that but what evidence do you have that proves for certain that it was not?
You also wrote "I guess this will start another endless debate".
In reality, there is absolutely nothing to debate because there is nothing to show that Boxhall was lying or mistaken. i.e. to show that a FULL ASTERN order was not given.
Sure! There's plenty of evidence from Dillon and Scott concerning engine movements but Scott only saw one movement on the ER telegraph before the WT doors engaged. Dillon did not see any of the actual orders on the ER telegraphs.
Any orders seen by Scott after the first STOP order came after he was able to return to the main engine room and that was after the WT doors between the Turbine Room and the Main ER were raised to enable the pumping operations to begin. Smith or any other responsible Master would not have allowed these WT doors to be raised until the ship had come to a complete halt.
Unless you can see the telegraph when in a ship's engine room during manoeuvres, you can only be sure of three things...
The engine shafts have stopped turning.
The engine shafts are turning ahead...or
The engine shafts are turning in reverse.
It follows that you cannot know what the initial engine order was. Nor can you know if the engines reached the maximum rpm for that order before it was superceded by a subsequent order.
Do you agree?
TO summarise:
How can you or anyone else be sure that a FULL ASTERN engine order was not given unless there is graphic evidence to prove it?
Jim C.
I'm coming in late to this discussion, but I suspect there may be confusion that might never be fully resolved.
To ring down a speed change, say, to stop or full astern, the bridge watch would move the engine order telegraph for the particular engines. A bell would ring in the bridge telegraphs. Then, simultaneously, the telegraph in the engine room would ring and point to the newly ordered speed. The engine room would move the acknowledgment pointer to acknowledge the order, and its bell would ring. The bridge telegraph's acknowledgement pointer would move to the ordered speed, and that bell would ring again.
So, in my mind's eye, I visualize some degree of pandemonium on the bridge. Multiple telegraphs are ringing repeatedly, various voice orders being given and possibly countermanded, the telegraphs being operated, and people running around and shouting.
Meanwhile, there would be major turmoil in the engine room. Bells ringing and unexpected telegraph orders being received. Changing the reciprocating engines' speeds would take time - and even more time to go from ahead to astern, with multiple valves to operate, requiring several men to race to their positions and execute the changeover that they may have only done a few times, and maybe never under emergency conditions. The ship had been operating several days with hardly any bells rung down to the engine room, so the engineering watch-standers are there in semi-daze, when all hell breaks loose.
I would doubt that any survivors could have really said exactly the order of events, and what the engine rpms actually did (not just ordered). And even if all had survived, there would be conflicting testimony.
In my ancient navy experience standing engineering watches, we had plenty of watch-standers to respond to emergency bells. I remember standing watch in a fireroom (boiler room), and an officer asked me what I would do if there was an astern bell during routine steaming ahead. The answer, was, Sir, cut in all the oil burners (the astern turbine was less efficient, and you could always cut back the burners if necessary to maintain steam pressure). Of course, that would not have been the correct answer on Titantic, but you get my drift.
To ring down a speed change, say, to stop or full astern, the bridge watch would move the engine order telegraph for the particular engines. A bell would ring in the bridge telegraphs. Then, simultaneously, the telegraph in the engine room would ring and point to the newly ordered speed. The engine room would move the acknowledgment pointer to acknowledge the order, and its bell would ring. The bridge telegraph's acknowledgement pointer would move to the ordered speed, and that bell would ring again.
So, in my mind's eye, I visualize some degree of pandemonium on the bridge. Multiple telegraphs are ringing repeatedly, various voice orders being given and possibly countermanded, the telegraphs being operated, and people running around and shouting.
Meanwhile, there would be major turmoil in the engine room. Bells ringing and unexpected telegraph orders being received. Changing the reciprocating engines' speeds would take time - and even more time to go from ahead to astern, with multiple valves to operate, requiring several men to race to their positions and execute the changeover that they may have only done a few times, and maybe never under emergency conditions. The ship had been operating several days with hardly any bells rung down to the engine room, so the engineering watch-standers are there in semi-daze, when all hell breaks loose.
I would doubt that any survivors could have really said exactly the order of events, and what the engine rpms actually did (not just ordered). And even if all had survived, there would be conflicting testimony.
In my ancient navy experience standing engineering watches, we had plenty of watch-standers to respond to emergency bells. I remember standing watch in a fireroom (boiler room), and an officer asked me what I would do if there was an astern bell during routine steaming ahead. The answer, was, Sir, cut in all the oil burners (the astern turbine was less efficient, and you could always cut back the burners if necessary to maintain steam pressure). Of course, that would not have been the correct answer on Titantic, but you get my drift.
I think perhaps a very few might be uncertain about engine order telegraphs aboard steamships. They weren't telegraphs, like dit-dash, etc. They were circular speed indicators, rotated by levers. The ones on the bridge, for sending orders, were mechanically linked to similar units in the engineering spaces.
Well, if there is one thing right, it is that the name of Titanic reached the water at 1:15 and the bow flooded at 1:20 as E Deck was flooding, then D Deck Reception flooded at 1:30 when the door was under. I also believe that Scotland Road was the cause of the Port List and the Third Class Dining area flooding. The lifeboats kind of went down quicker than I imagined though.. There were less than half of the boats in this than the actual ship that still had like 15 boats onboard at the time the bow flooded.
In my imagination, I see the bow flooding at 1:30 as Boats 14 and 16 are lowered.
I see the Reception Room flooding when Boats 13, 15, and 2 are lowered.
The grand staircase was a little too high flooded for the shot. As far as I remember, the water flooded up maybe to the half landing between Boat Deck and A Deck when the funnel collapsed and the dome also collapsed.
I see the Reception Room flooding when Boats 13, 15, and 2 are lowered.
The grand staircase was a little too high flooded for the shot. As far as I remember, the water flooded up maybe to the half landing between Boat Deck and A Deck when the funnel collapsed and the dome also collapsed.
I've seen bits and pieces of this animation but haven't had the chance to sit through the whole thing yet. For anyone who has, is there much in the way of voiceovers apart from at the beginning of the clip? From the snippets I've seen, there were only subtitles afterwards.
In fairness I think they've done a terrific job so far and I look forward to experiencing the finished product. Because there's so many conflicting testimonies, I don't think that they - or anyone - will ever be able to create such a massive real time animation which every researcher and expert in the field will completely agree with. Nor would I think that's what they would even be attempting to do. Interest in the wreck has died down somewhat since the 100th anniversary, and hopefully the release of this game and all the interactive technology that will come with it will help to reinvigorate that interest. If it has a few factual flaws here and there, that's a small price to pay in the bigger scheme of things.
Cheers,
Adam.
In fairness I think they've done a terrific job so far and I look forward to experiencing the finished product. Because there's so many conflicting testimonies, I don't think that they - or anyone - will ever be able to create such a massive real time animation which every researcher and expert in the field will completely agree with. Nor would I think that's what they would even be attempting to do. Interest in the wreck has died down somewhat since the 100th anniversary, and hopefully the release of this game and all the interactive technology that will come with it will help to reinvigorate that interest. If it has a few factual flaws here and there, that's a small price to pay in the bigger scheme of things.
Cheers,
Adam.
The problem with that they "ignore" what survivors said about the list.
For example there was as list to port when boat No. 14 was lowered but not when No. 13 was. Sadly we see boats Nos. 9, 11 and 13 lowered while the ship has a list to port which is nothing any survivor in these boats mentioned. Same goes with other boats too.
Yes. The port list, caused by Scotland Road flooding, wouldve been great as they depicted. They did pretty good, but the reception room flooding seems too early. I watched their podcast and they said they had no time at the end to put the list in the flooding. The only other flaw I saw wrong though was that the Honor & Glory team didnt use the first class dining saloon, second class staircase, or any other rooms other than first class. The only steerage or crew facility I saw flooding was the Scotland Road sequence.
Could the eventual port list due (at least partly) to increased rate of flooding on the port side once the open gangway door in D-deck reached sea level?
I know that this is an older thread, but while we're discussing this video, I have a couple of questions. What exactly were those "explosions" heard within the ship as the plunge began? I think I read somewhere that exploding boilers were a theory, but it was later disproven. Perhaps it was the keel beginning to fail in the early stages of the break up? On the other hand, I would imagine the breakup to happen all at once instead of stages. And another thing- Wouldn't the water displacement from the stern falling back be felt by survivors in the lifeboats? I'm sure a great wave must have been produced, remembering that the wave from the no. 1 funnel pushed the overturned collapsible 50 yards from the ship! Also, are there any survivor testimonies that felt the stern fall from under them? I know that Frank Prentice was on the stern of the ship at some of the last moments, but I don't ever recall him mentioning the stern falling back...
Hello there!
Exploding boiler? There was one delivering steam to the generators and pumps up until near the end. Perhaps.
Sudden structural failure? Probably...but not the keel...possibly the sheer strake plate running for the full length right round the ship at "C" deck level. This was a very heavy continuous strake of plating. See here:
Exploding boiler? There was one delivering steam to the generators and pumps up until near the end. Perhaps.
Sudden structural failure? Probably...but not the keel...possibly the sheer strake plate running for the full length right round the ship at "C" deck level. This was a very heavy continuous strake of plating. See here:
