Bob Godfrey

Member
Nov 22, 2002
6,046
57
208
UK
Helen Bishop, herself a teenager, would surely not have used the word 'girl' unless referring to somebody close to her own age. Miss Isham was 50 years old, and would have been described as the woman or more likely as the lady across the hall.
 

Mike Poirier

Member
Dec 31, 2004
1,472
0
106
Actually Bob, I don't have the account in front of me, so I was the one who used 'girl.' I do remember in one account Helen used the word girl, when referring to a lady in her lifeboat, and I think Helen was the youngest one.
 

Bob Godfrey

Member
Nov 22, 2002
6,046
57
208
UK
You got it right, Michael. Mrs Bishop's statement was:

"The girl who occupied a stateroom across from us refused to get up and the stewards pulled her out of bed, she got back in and sank with the ship."
 

Mike Poirier

Member
Dec 31, 2004
1,472
0
106
Wow- I guess I have a fairly decent memory.
Now that I have the statement in front of me, the reason I ask you to give it more consideration is because if you look at how 'English' is constantly evolving- there are women 60 + that refer to other women as 'girls'.
I know this as my late grandmother used to say,
"I'm going out with the girls. " And these ladies ranged from 40-75.
 
Dec 6, 2000
1,480
3
166
The full account is in Helen Bishop's Personal Summary under:
Dowagiac Daily News (1912) MR. AND MRS. BISHOP GIVE FIRST AUTHENTIC INTERVIEW CONCERNING TITANTIC [SIC] DISASTER 20th April 1912

Could Helen have thought that Nelle Snyder died?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bob Godfrey

Member
Nov 22, 2002
6,046
57
208
UK
Well, Michael, my own Grandmother was an exact contemporary of Helen Bishop, though more of a Molly Brown in character. She too liked nothing better in later life than a night out with 'the girls' (except perhaps a night out with 'the boys'!). But those ladies who collectively and colloquially were 'the girls' were formally and individually the woman across the street, the woman next door, the lady she had once cleaned for, etc. I can't envisage any situation in which she would have formally described a stranger, a woman of obviously mature years and refined aspect, as a 'girl'. That would have been both disrespectful and inaccurate. Likewise, Helen Bishop's 'narrative' correctly refers to a child as a 'little girl', and to the 18-year old Mrs Eloise Smith as a woman. She also describes herself as a woman. Is it likely that, in the same context, she would describe the 50-year old Miss Isham as a girl?
.
 

Mike Poirier

Member
Dec 31, 2004
1,472
0
106
Hi Bob,
Actually, there was no child aboard boat 7 ( except when Washington Dodge jr transferred ).
So she was referring to another adult woman when 'she' made that comment to the press. Keeping that in mind, I don't think it's at all disrespectful or inaccurate.

Hi Lester, Helen Bishop and Nelle Snyder were on deck together and boarded boat 7 together. Yet, you've opened up another possibility- what if Helen told the story, referring to Nelle Snyder, and the writer punched it up by adding, " and sank with the ship. "

Mike
 
Dec 6, 2000
1,480
3
166
Hi Mike,

Thank you for the info on Helen and Nelle. I wonder if Nelle might be the little girl: "......I took off my stockings and gave them to a little girl who hadn't as much time to dress as I had."

From some of the accounts I have seen anything is possible.
 
Oct 15, 2006
45
0
76
Could Mrs Isham be the older woman in the lifeboat 9 who pushed away everybody and returned on Titanic deck? Since I read this in A Night to Remember, I always wondered who was the lady
 

Brian Ahern

Member
Dec 19, 2002
643
1
146
Jonathan - it's possible. I think that info originally came from a first person account that was in Colonel Gracie's book. I think it said the woman then "went below". Since 9 was lowered from second class space, this would indicate to me that she was a second class passenger (though, of course, not necessarily).

Second class candidates are Mary Mack or Annie Funk (though I believe Funk's movements during the sinking are documented to some extent). I think Mrs. Karnes, Mrs. Kantor, Miss Hiltunen and Miss Yrois were too young to be the woman. Mrs. Carter, Mrs. Turpin, Mrs. Chapman and others would most likely have been with their husbands.

This is all going on the assumption, of course, that a) the memory of the witness was correct and b) the lady did not board a later boat.

The theory that makes the most sense to me regarding Miss Isham is that she simply underestimated the danger and wandered first class space until it was too late. When you think of how many first class women all but blundered into the last few boats, it's amazing that there weren't more who met the fate of Miss Isham and Miss Evans.

Some - Harris, Futrelle, Hoyt - may well have wanted to stay with their husbands as long as possible. But Edith Rosenbaum and the Hippachs probably would have kept hanging out if people hadn't spotted them and hustled them into boats.
 
Dec 7, 2000
1,348
8
168
If we are to believe Mrs Flegenheim's account, Anne Isham's steward call button/bell did not work. Perhaps Anne was unable to get any service or answer when things began to happen and giving up on the whole matter might have just gone straight back to bed. I wonder just how many people actually managed to sleep through the entire ordeal and die in their bed, possibly asleep.

Daniel.
 

Brian Ahern

Member
Dec 19, 2002
643
1
146
Thanks for providing that, Daniel. I've never seen Mrs. Flegenheim's account and didn't know she'd referenced Miss Isham. I thought nobody recorded anything of Isham throughout the voyage. She she do into much depth about here?
 
Jan 4, 2007
47
0
76
I'll now render Miss Willard's full account:

Chicago Tribune, Sunday, April 21, 1912, p. 3, c. 1 (account):

Duluth Woman Tells Story.

. . . Miss Constance Willard of Duluth, Minn., who left the Titanic twenty minutes before the vessel sank, arrived in Chicago during the day over the Lake Shore limited.

"One subject talked of after we were on board the Carpathia," she said, "was the fact the Titanic had no searchlight. The crew said that it had been the intention of the owners to equip the vessel with a searchlight after the arrival in New York,

. . . "When I reached the deck after the collision the crew were getting the boats ready to lower, and many of the women were running about looking for their husbands and children. The women were being placed in the boats, and two men took hold of me and almost pushed me into a boat. I did not appreciate the danger and I struggled until they released me.

"'Do not waste time; let her go if she will not get in,' an officer said. I hurried back to my cabin again and went from cabin to cabin looking for my friends, but could not find them. A little English girl about 15 years old ran up to me and threw her arms about me.

Hurries Aboard a Boat

"'O, I am all alone," she sobbed, "won't you let me go with you?' I then began to realize the real danger and saw that all but two of the boats had been lowered. Some men called to us and we hurried to where they were loading a boat. All the women had been provided with life belts. As the men lifted us into the boat they smiled at us and told us to be brave. The night was cold and the men who were standing about, especially the steerage passengers, looked chilled, but the men who were helping the women into the boats seemed different. Even while they smiled at us great beads of perspiration stood out on their foreheads.

"I never will forget an incident that occurred just as we were about to be lowered into the water. I had just been lifted into the boat and was still standing, when a foreigner rushed up to the side of the vessel and holding out a bundle in his arms cried with tears running down his face:

Begs Her to Take Child

"O, please, kind lady, won't you save my little girl, my baby. For myself it is no difference, but please, please take the little one.' Of course, I took the child. Most women were compelled to stand in the boats because they all wore the life-belts, which made it almost impossible to sit down.

. . . "In our boat there were seven men, about twenty women, and several children. The night was dark. Twenty minutes after leaving the Titanic we heard an explosion and the vessel appeared to split in two and sank. Then a foreign woman in our boat began singing a hymn, and we all joined, although few knew the words. All around us we heard crying and sobbing for perhaps three minutes.
___________________________

That's it--if she gave any further accounts while in the "Windy City" I am not aware of them . . .
 
Dec 6, 2000
1,480
3
166
Thomas,

I doubt the lady at boat 9 was Miss Willard. - She was only 21, so hardly an "old lady".
It would also be impossible for her to have left boat 9, gone back to her stateroom on E-deck and then returned to board boat 11.
Given her statement with regard to the numbers in her boat, we are looking at a port-side lifeboat and if the timing is correct boat 4 would seem to be the most likely.
 

Brian Ahern

Member
Dec 19, 2002
643
1
146
Thanks, Thomas, for taking the trouble to post all that. And it was definitely good thinking, but I also doubt the lady at 9 was Miss Willard.

There's the age factor that Lester mentioned. Also, from what Steward Wheelton at boat 11 said, I got the impression that the lady he was talking about walked away from boat 11 two times, before being dragged into it. It doesn't sound to me like there were multiple boats involved.

Constance's account is a bit hazy, as are so many survivor accounts, especially when put into newspapers. She (or the reporter) makes it sound like the English girl came up to her in the first class corridor. But what teenaged English girl would have been wandering by herself in first class? Roberta Maioni was the only English teenager I can think of in first class and she was away in boat 8 already (and not by herself). My guess is that in all the confusion Constance got the details of this unnamed person scrambled somehow.

Walter Lord had Constance refusing to get into boat 8 and eventually boarding boat 4. I don't know what he had to go on, but one thing worth noting is that 4 was the boat that Constance's chaperones - the Carters - were aboard. Perhaps she had managed to find them after all?

It might be worth it to see what boat contained an unaccompanied teenaged English girl.
 

Mike Poirier

Member
Dec 31, 2004
1,472
0
106
I always wondered if Isham had perhaps changed her cabin. Helen Bishop did refer to the woman across the hall who refused to get out of bed and went down with the ship.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A

Archie

Guest
It is believed that Miss Ann Isham boarded the the boat with her Dog,

And as the ship was sinking she refused to leave him. And this resulted in her death. And that she was the woman who had been clinging to a dog in the water, both dying of course
 

Arun Vajpey

Member
Apr 21, 2009
982
188
113
64
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I came late into the odd case of Ann "Lizzie" Isham and developed an interest. From what I have read is several posts thus far, it seems likely that she was the sole occupant of First Class Cabin C-49 and so virtually Gracie's neighbour. If a nosy Parker like Gracie did not bump into her during the voyage, she must have been a very private person, almost pathologically so. But unless she took all her meals in her room and never ventured outside (a highly unlikely scenario), someone would have seen her and spoken to her - perhaps her table companions? Furthermore, if she was that off-beat, her room stewards or other staff (who cleaned-up, made beds etc) would have noticed and remembered and since both Cullen and Faulkner survived the sinking, surely they would have mentioned her. Also, if she was so 'room bound' the bedroom steward would have double-checked before locking the door - if indeed that was done.

She lived in Paris for 9 years preceding to the disaster and was reported quite active in the Paris society. Why would such a woman isolate herself on board a large and vibrant ship such as the Titanic?

She might have been the solo First Class woman who refused to dress and wear a life-vest and preferred to go back to sleep. But I doubt that she - or anyone else - would have remained that way when it became obvious that the Titanic was going to founder. IMO, a more likely scenario is that for her own reasons (maybe because she found him boring) Ms Isham tactfully avoided Gracie and spent time with the Ryersons during meal times etc. On the night of April 14th-15th, she most likely realised rather late that the ship was sinking and so dressed, put on her life-vest and went out. If most of the boats had left by then, she would have been stranded on the ship; maybe she was one of the 5 women that steward Brown saw in the vicinity of Collapsible A during the final death throes of the Titanic.