Ismay

[Randy Bryan Bigham]

Michael: "I'm profoundly interested in understanding it, but not sitting in judgement of various figures who are long past caring about anybody's judgement."

Thank you for clarifying. Yes, I see your point. We are in agreement totally.

 

[Donald J A Smith]

Michael wrote and Randy wrote (as usual but not - happily/helpfully/healthfully - as always!) remarks "in agreement totally" (as Randy said to Michael) with myself. But, so that doesn't call 'Dead Stop' to an otherwise important - and often interesting - thread, I'd just like to add that I suspect, were the entire story discoverable - which, unlike the wreck and perhaps fortunately, it isn't! - a future bio of him might be entitled 'Ismay: Haunted Hero of Titanic'. There! I've said it! Now; if not actually 'sinking', am I 'listing'?

 

[Maria Fernandez]

In my opinion what Ismay did was wrong, but as people have said already, a lot would do the same in that situation. I think Ismay has always had a shadow over his name - i think its time to let it rest - i mean we cannot condem him nor free him from this shadow..

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>a future bio of him might be entitled 'Ismay: Haunted Hero of Titanic'. There! I've said it! Now; if not actually 'sinking', am I 'listing'? <<

Nope. You might get some agreement from some, and heated disagreement from others, but that's life in a public access forum. <shrug>

 

[Jeremy Lee]

Sure, we can never clear Ismay of his shadow.....

So I really have to agree.

 

[Maria Fernandez]

>>you might get some agreement from some, and heated disagreement from others, but that's life in a public access forum.<<
That's what we are here for!

Jeremy, Glad you agree,one thing i will say about Ismay, no matter how it is put across, Ismay did act like a coward, but that it is not his fault..it was the way he was, how can you change that?

 

[Jeremy Lee]

>>Ismay did act like a coward<<

IMHO, Ismay did not really acted like a coward because he did not fight like an animal for a place in the boats or shoved passengers out of the boats. Anyone in that situation would try to save their skins, unless they sensed that the sinking was due to their fault (like Smith, Andrews etc.) or they were super-heroic like Strauss and Guggenheim. Any ordinary person would take the opportunity to get into a lifeboat in Ismay's situation.

That is just my opinion, you might beg to differ.

 

[Paul Lee]

"IMHO, Ismay did not really acted like a coward because he did not fight like an animal for a place in the boats or shoved passengers out of the boats."

Not unless you believe John Thayer Jnr.'s account of Ismay's escape...

 

[Maria Fernandez]

he acted like a coward because he didn't want people to see him getting into a boat if u know what i mean. He was scared of people seeing him 'escaping'

 

[Inger Sheil]

Maria, what basis do you have to claim that Ismay 'didn't want people to see him getting into a boat'? Why do you think he was 'scared of people' seeing him escaping?

Cinematic portrayals have shown him slinking into a boat and not meeting Murdoch's eyes, but that's artistic license - not testimony.

 

[Maria Fernandez]

no no it's not from movies. It's based upon the ways he has dealt with decisions before, In business, as that's all we can be sure of, and it is my understanding that this side of his personality would have aplayed a huge part that night. And i really would prefer it if people didn't automatically think i was stupid enough to base my ideas on films.

 

[Inger Sheil]

I didn't automatically assume that you were 'stupid' enough to base your ideas on movies, Maria, nor did I state that this was where you drew your information. Indeed, I asked you where you had formed this idea - that wasn't a rhetorical question, it was a request for you to cite your sources. As movies are a source that depict his entry into a boat in this manner, I raised it as a legitimate entry into the discussion.

Can you please cite a particular business decision that leads you to believe Ismay didn't want people to see him getting into a boat, and was in fact 'scared' of people witnessing his departure? You stated this as a fact, without any caveats, and I don't see the link between what we know of how Ismay conducted business and the manner in which he entered a lifeboat. What exactly is it about his business decisions that leads you to believe he acted in this manner?

I would like to see some direct evidence - not conjecture or inference - that has his demenour while boarding a lifeboat as you have depicted it.

 

[Maria Fernandez]

Sorry Inger, i just got "bullied" if you like on the last board i was on because of my age, my guard is up a bit.. i apologize for being so rude.

Lets see, When Ismay even was discussing The building of Titanic and Olympic his main objective seemed to be to make it the best he could possibly have. Ok- most would do the same. But the fact he was a businessman suggests he was pretty uptight and like most businessmen scared of failure for whatever reasons. I think perhaps Ismay felt he didnt want people to see him get into the boat because he was worried it was a sign of failure - do you see what i mean? im not too great and explaining myself.

 

[Inger Sheil]

quote:

Sorry Inger, i just got "bullied" if you like on the last board i was on because of my age, my guard is up a bit.. i apologize for being so rude.

I don't think there's much age discrimination in the on-line Titanic forums I've frequented - the net is a great leveller. I have no idea what age you are, for example. I respond to ideas and opinions, not age, gender, ethnicity etc. I hope that you come to feel comfortable enough here on ET to distinguish when people are debating an idea, not attacking you personally.

quote:

But the fact he was a businessman suggests he was pretty uptight and like most businessmen scared of failure for whatever reasons. I think perhaps Ismay felt he didnt want people to see him get into the boat because he was worried it was a sign of failure - do you see what i mean?

No, I'm afraid I don't see what you mean. You've made an assumption based on a sweeping generalisation of his profession rather than on what historical evidence we actually have as to his character. Some people could argue the other way - if you want to choose another stereotype relating to how an Edwardian shipping magnate was supposed to behave, you could suggest he was arrogant enough not to care. Another argument might suggest shame on his part if he felt he'd contravened contemporary concepts of noblesse oblige. But all these responses are merely based on conjecture as to how he might have responded, and that's flimsy evidence indeed. There is no direct evidence as to what exactly his demenour was when he entered the lifeboat.

For all we know he did it in complete confidence, and was only hit by remorse afterwards. Or perhaps he did slink in, conscious of the potential for social disapproval at his survival. Or perhaps his response was something else entirely. Evidence as to what his manner was is scarce on the ground - there's more material on how he behaved once he reached the Carpathia.​

 

[Maria Fernandez]

true. i'm glad i've got you guys sto straighten me out