It's going to be disputed

Michael H. Standart

Michael H. Standart

Member
>>I remember hearing that the officers on the bridge of the Californian saw lights turn out and back on, on the ship steaming from the west before the ship stopped.<<

Well, that was what they claimed their perception was and perceptions can be confusing. Assuming their testimony isn't so much bovine excrement (A dangerous assumption!) the sense I have of it was that they weren't overly impressed with what they saw in the first place. Just a steamer mucking around in the night which eventually just went away. No big deal.

>>According to Captain Lord, she hit 13½ knots on the morning of 15 April, so she was in quite good shape.<<

For a ten year old tramp steamer, that's pretty damned good. The Layland Line must have made a special effort to keep their ships up in top form. Some lines today should do as well. (They don't!)

>>Can anybody suggest what they failed to do?<<

You'll have to help me out with that one Dave. I don't have a clue.
 
Samuel Halpern

Samuel Halpern

Member
Let's not forget that the SOS position being sent out by wireless would have been a position toward the south and west of where Lord thought he was at, not in the direction where the rockets were seen. Now that would certainly have caused some confusion. Which way to go? Toward the SE where signals were seen, or toward the SSW to the SOS position? First get back on the wireless and get confirmation that the distress signals that were seen from the Californian were those of the Titanic no matter what coordinates were being reported. I would guess that at least a half hour would be wasted just trying to sort it all out between the two ships.

Rostron on the other hand was lucky. He was coming up from the SE and was heading more or less in the right direction.
 
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Matt Pereira

Guest
Michael, I understand that with the testimony that each statements is their personal experance and it will differ from others. They probably didnt notice it. I think if they noticed lights in big groups going out then coming back on then rockets being fired at close intervals I think that would have raised their curiousity. Atleast for me it would cause it would be hard to get a group of lights from water line up to the heigth of the boatdeck to take and turn off at come back on. I kinda always doubted that they could see that. If they could pick that out I would suspect they could have picked up the moreslamps some, might not understand what they were saying due to the distance but they should have noticed that they were using morse lamps. Then again I feel that since the morse lamps were used with Titanic sinking lower and lower in the water I feel that the closer to the surface of the water the morse lamps got, the shoter and shorter its effective viewing distance would be.
 
Michael H. Standart

Michael H. Standart

Member
>>Now that would certainly have caused some confusion. Which way to go? <<

I posed that very question several years ago and as Sam points out, it would be quite the conundrum. So-called common sense would dictate that you go for the rockets but is it really as simple as that?

Not really.

You know something is going on there but what? If you're confused about what it all means in the first place, then for all you know, one of those big German ships is having a party. You end up having to weigh that agaist the word of the Navigation Officer of one of the crack trans-Atlantic mail boats in a day and age when that sort of status carried a lot of weight.

>>Michael, I understand that with the testimony that each statements is their personal experance and it will differ from others.<<

It's worse then that. Whether or bot Stone and Gibson were honestly mystified at the time is something we have only their word for. Since they were the guys on watch, they knew they would be in the hot seat along with Captain Lord id action was taken against their certificates or if criminal charges were preferred.

Think that wouldn't give both a powerful incentive to spin things a bit?
 
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Matt Pereira

Guest
Oh I agree that Lord and the officers on watch on the Californian probably were putting their own touch of fantasy to the truth to cover themself. I just ment in general that during the sinking the survivors on Titanic would be stating their personal experance.
 
Michael H. Standart

Michael H. Standart

Member
>>I just ment in general that during the sinking the survivors on Titanic would be stating their personal experance.<<

Quite right. They would, and the problem with that is that most of these people were not trained observers. I suppose that's something of an irony there in that the people with nothing to hide and no agenda couldn't be trusted any more then those who were under suspicion.
 
Tracy Smith

Tracy Smith

Member
>>>Captain Lord and his officers failed to do an obvious and seaman-like thing during the night, but I think David Brown and I are the only ones who've noticed it. Can anybody suggest what they failed to do? Hint: it has nothing to do with radio.<<<

I'm all ears......
 
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Matthew Farr

Member
I have been interested in Titanic for about 10 years now and until recently I have only been interested in the construction, life and sinking. I have now started to research the Californians role as well as the the switch theory (I do not believe it but it interests me).

I response to Dave Gittins question in is post on 9/20 I have a guess.

Could they have fired their own rockets to signal the Titanic that they had sighted them firing theirs?

Again this is only a guess.
 
Michael H. Standart

Michael H. Standart

Member
>>I have now started to research the Californians role<<

Hope you have a thick skin. Take any side or no side at all, dealing with this thorny issue is no game for the faint hearted! Good luck.

>>as well as the the switch theory (I do not believe it but it interests me).<<

Get Bruce Beveridge's and Steve Hall's book on the subject. Click on This Hotlink for details. A fuller exposition of this silly premise would be tough to find, and the photos make it workthwhile all on it's own. You would also find Mark Chirnside's outstanding dissertation on this at http://www.markchirnside.co.uk/DISSERTATION.htm a good read.
 
Dave Gittins

Dave Gittins

Member
Matthew, firing rockets would have been confusing. They overlooked something that should have been obvious and perfectly simple.
 
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Matthew Farr

Member
Thanks for the advice Michael. I have already ordered Hall and Beveridge's book and i look forward to its arrival. I have read Robin Gardiner's books and I find his theories to be outlandish, they make no sense.

As to the Californian, can you tell me if Peter Padfields book 'The Titanic and The Californian' is worth getting? Any others you could recommend would be appreciated as well.

As to Dave Gittins question, I am stumped.
 
Dave Gittins

Dave Gittins

Member
Matthew, obviously I recommend my own book, which includes, among many other things, an unbiased account of 'the Californian affair'.

Peter Padfield's book is worth a look, if you can get hold of it. Naturally it has its defects, having been written long before the wreck was discovered. It is, I think, an unbiased attempt to get at the facts, which is more than can be said for other books on this vexed topic. Padfield, by the way, got close to finding the facts about Carpathia and the scene of the wreck, which was a good effort, given the facts available to him.

I can't honestly recommend any of the recent books written in support of Captain Lord. They are characterised by the selective use of evidence, endless red herrings, such as the notorious 'third ship', and limited nautical expertise.

I am privy to some very good new work that will be published as its authors see fit. You'll will have to do some exceptional research to produce anything comparable, as important material can only been seen 'on the spot' in Britain.
 
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Paul Lee

Member
I hope I'm one of the people who produce the "good work" you allude to, Dave
Happy


Sadly it will have to wait. I'm getting married in November!
 
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Paul Lee

Member
Dave, I apologise for not replying sooner. Of course I don't think the Aurora Borealis and meteors (ref: Almerian) are connected. I am just having a bad time struggling against my Seasonal Affective Disorder thats all.

Incidentally, with regard to the Almerian, it is possible she travelled along the eastern US seaboard before travelling east on a rhumb/great circle course to the north of Ireland to Liverpool?
 
Michael H. Standart

Michael H. Standart

Member
>>As to the Californian, can you tell me if Peter Padfields book 'The Titanic and The Californian' is worth getting?<<

Get all of them if you can. Agree with them or not, at least you'll know what the arguements are in their proper context. Above all, make sure you check anything they claim against the Inquiry transcripts themselves. They're both available on line at http://www.titanicinquiry.org/
 
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