J Bruce Ismay Zero to Hero


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Janicole

Guest
ok, where do you guys find all this stuff? I've been researching Titanic since I was in the 5th grade and you guys seem to put me to shame. Where do you find it?
 
J

Janicole

Guest
>>>I suppose that the subjective question of cowardice in the face of such a disaster will forever be open to debate. I don't really know if Ismay was a coward or not. We may all think we are not cowards until that unforeseen moment when our courage is put to the test. There is no reliable contemporary evidence to suggest that Ismay personally kept any woman or child from occupying the spot in the lifeboat that he took.

Reliable witnesses all say that Ismay HELPED women and children to board the lifeboats. Then he took his place as Collapsible C was going down. Should he have allowed the empty seat to leave without him, knowing that there was no woman or child in the immediate vicinity who could take it? The question is open for debate. He didn't push a child out of the way to win that seat. It was simply there and he was there too, because he was in the thick of it, helping (as much as a civilian could) to launch the boats. <<<

I didn't mean he prevented any women and children I don't think he would've gotten on if there were still women and children around what I mean the if the life boats where suppose to be for all the women and children on the ship first (as Lightholler took it) before they ever started loading up men then Ismay and any other man that got on a life boat when women and children were still on the Titanic would be considered a coward.

I think I'm being misunderstood. In that situation I know I would've gotten on a lifeboat and I'll admit it I would've been a coward, BUT I'm not saying Ismay is this big horrible person for getting on a lifeboat. He was a human being, with a lot of stress on him and he when his pride and joy was sinking that was a lot for him to held with and on top of that add that he was being handed a death sentence of a couple of hours. He most've been thinking about his ship going to and in shot of that, and how he'd never see his wife and children again, and just all the things he's never get to do. I've been in a situation were I was going to die before I know what goes on through your mind so I can imagine what might have been going through his and how he could have been feeling. I could get an idea of where his mind set might have been and see why he did it, like I said before I would've done the same thing, but I would also consider myself a coward for it later, but I don't consider Ismay a villian in the least. He was an regular human being like you and I and made the same choice a lot of us would've.
 
May 27, 2007
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Howdy All and Janicole,

quote:

I didn't mean he prevented any women and children I don't think he would've gotten on if there were still women and children around what I mean the if the life boats where suppose to be for all the women and children on the ship first (as Ligholler took it) before they ever started loading up men then Ismay and any other man that got on a life boat when women and children were still on the Titanic would be considered a coward.
I understand what your trying to say there and I thought myself that he got a raw deal but then I think that it was his company that owned the ship and that those passengers who didn't make it were in a way his passengers so I can understand why everyone was so upset with him back then! In some people's minds he'd ripped those passengers off who had died and survived to tell about it! Although once the "Compensation Hearings" got underway it would be a different story, somewhat although even then the "Surviving Families" felt that they had received a raw deal and they could of found people in the street who agreed with them! Hindsight about Ismay to me is always 20/20 and I leave it at that! Fascinating discussion though! Hope to read through it in depth when I have more time.​
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>He may have wanted to get out of the U.S. before he and the crew could be supeonaed to an American inquiry;<<

The thought never would have occured to Ismay that this would even be an issue. The U.S. Senate rarely carries out investigations like this, and has little in the way of any practical reason to do so since it's not a fact finding body in the manner of the Board Of Trade.

The whole thing was only made possible by way of a special resolution and the whole thing was laid on before the Carpathia even made port. The first Ismay knew about it was when he was handed his subpeana.

>>ok, where do you guys find all this stuff? I've been researching Titanic since I was in the 5th grade and you guys seem to put me to shame. Where do you find it?<<

The inquiry transcripts would be a good place to start. See http://www.titanicinquiry.org/

I have some experience and training in lookout watches since U.S. Navy supply ratings (Which I was) are expected to stand low visibility detail watches. I've also had some substantial training in shipboard damage control methods and proceedures, even the most basic of which is pretty extensive.

I suspect that you may be using a lot of secondary and tertiary sources. There's nothing wrong with that in and of itself if you just want to get a general overview and understanding of the basic history. The problem here is that when you deal with such material and accept it as factual without question, you also end up accepting a given author's "Spin" and his/her mistakes without question.

For really serious research, primary (first hand) sources are an absolute must. They are far from fault free but at least you get the good and the not-so-good right from the original source and in context.
 

Mark Baber

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Dec 29, 2000
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ok, where do you guys find all this stuff?

All sorts of different places. As Mike said, there's plenty of primary information out there, much of it available for free online. My particular stock in trade is newspaper articles, some obtained online, but many obtained by traveling to libraries all over the northeast U.S., armed with quarters.

;-)

I've been researching Titanic since I was in the 5th grade

I don't know how long that is, but some of us have been at this for 30 years or more.
 
J

Janicole

Guest
>>>The inquiry transcripts would be a good place to start. See http://www.titanicinquiry.org/ <<<

Thanks Michael, this is kind of like a huge blow to me. I've been obsessively researching Titanic since the 5th grade (which makes almost 12 years) because I wanted to write a book that was up to date and told the true story of Titanic and would do those people that both died and survived justice. I wanted it to me truth and not have a whole bunch of rumors compromising the truth and I thought I knew so much from all this research throughout the years and I finally started writing the book and have gotten pretty far into it so it's deflating to see you had it all wrong and now you have to go back and re-research and erase everything you wrote, through out your whole idea and start from stratch....oh well I'm up for the challenge. I just hope it doesn't take me 12 more years before I get things right. If you have any other good site please let me know. I'd really appreciate it. Also, I read in a book when I was younger that the 3rd class weren't actually kept below, but that they were told to go to the main stair well and that lead to the boats but that it was just so chaotic and with all the different language barriers few actually knew where to go. Also that many just refused to leave their husbands. Is this true?
 
J

Janicole

Guest
>>>>ok, where do you guys find all this stuff?

All sorts of different places. As Mike said, there's plenty of primary information out there, much of it available for free online. My particular stock in trade is newspaper articles, some obtained online, but many obtained by traveling to libraries all over the northeast U.S., armed with quarters. <<<<

Where do you find those newspapers, because I've seen clips online but I'd rather see them for maybe and actually KNOW they came from a news article.

I saw one that CLAIMED to be a news article of an eye witness account but when I looked at who was in what life boat (these 2 were suppose to have been in this life boat looking up and saying this guy do this thing) they were even in the same boat.

>>>I don't know how long that is, but some of us have been at this for 30 years or more.<<<

lol ok, that makes my 12 years seem like nothing lol
 
J

Janicole

Guest
Also I bought the tape of Colonel Gracie's account (because honestly, he bores me and I thought the tape would be easier to finish), but the man reading it sound like such a pompous old goat, mixed with Gracie's boring writing style just makes it hard to get through. Is there a lot of valuable information in it or is it just a bunch of disproven rumors?
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>Is there a lot of valuable information in it or is it just a bunch of disproven rumors?<<

Depends on what you're looking for. Any account, even from direct witneses, has to be treated with caution since human memory is amazingly fragile. Stiil, Colonel Gracie's account represents the perspective of somebody who was actually there, and that's a lot more then can be said for some of the "thrilling" stories which appeared in the press.
 

Mark Baber

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Dec 29, 2000
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Where do you find those newspapers

The New York Times' archive is online and free and can be found at http://query.nytimes.com/search/alternate/query?query=&st=fromcse#top

Various other papers also have searchable online archives, but the others that I'm familiar with---The Boston Globe, The Times (London), and those searchable through newspaperarchive.com, etc.---require payment.

Finally, many local papers can only be found on microfilm in libraries.
 
G

Guest - Liam

Guest
I know this is an old thread now but...

How certain are we that Ismay did get into the boat when no-one other woman and children, or any other men for that matter, were around? I say this because quite a few survivors who escaped on Boat C later said that a crowd pushed them towards the boat, so much so that Wilde had to fire a gun into the air (twice I think) to stop a rush of men and order only "woman and children first". So we can imagine the panic that was happening to get on the last lifeboat on the starboard side of the ship, apart from the collapsible which was still up above the officers quarters.

I think at least two of the lifeboat occupants claimed that they saw a man jump into the boat as it was being lowered, implying that he would not have been allowed in otherwise, which makes you then wonder why both Ismay, Carter and the rest of the men who were on boat C were allowed to get in.

So much for the men... what about the women and children...

Miss Amy Stanley, who was in boat C, claimed that the last person that she spoke to on the deck, before getting into the boat, was Rosa Abbot, who was standing near the boat with her two sons, ages 16 and 13. She told Amy that there was too much of a crowd around the boat for her and her sons to try and get into it, so they would wait where they were and stay together.

They were later washed overboard by 'the wave' and Rosa lost hold of her two boys who sadly perished. She managed to cling onto Collapsible A however, which implies that when she was swept over she was likely still on the starboard side of the ship and somewhere forward of the second funnel. It therefore seems unlikely that they wandered too far away from where Amy left them as they were in this location when the wave hit - definitely not far enough that they would miss Wilde's call for anymore woman or children if the crowd did suddenly disperse. This rings especially true if we go with the more recent theory that Boat C left closer to 2am than the 1.40 which was suggested at the British Inquiry.

Also, Frankie Goldsmith would later claim that 16 year old Alfred Rush was on the deck and didn't get into boat C - although it does sound like this was a voluntary choice on his half. When the officers tried to pull him in he said he would 'wait with the men'. He had only just turned 16 on the voyage, so the poor lad must have wanted to take the opportunity to prove he was now a man. But why didn't he then get into the boat with the other men when no other women or children were around?

There is also a sighting, although I am not certain how much we can trust it, which says that Bess Allison and - I am assuming - little Lorraine and possibly Hudson, were in collapsible A as the wave hit and that Major Puechen saw Bess washed overboard. (Somehow I am not certain we can trust this as he had departed the ship on Boat 6, from the Port side, nearly 2 hours before that, so unless he had very good eye sight....) If this is true however then there is a chance they may have been in the vicinity as well when boat C was launched - of course that is just speculation however.

So what I am really asking here is, what happened to this crowd of people? Especially in the case of the poor Abbot family if nothing else.

For the sake of argument lets say that Mrs Abbot's sons were at first denied access to the boat as they were maybe too old and looked more like men than boys. We know another 13 year old struggled to get on an earlier boat during the sinking, however this then contradicts Goldsmiths tale of Alfred Rush being offered a place. Why try to coax Rush into the boat and not the two Abbot boys?

And even so, once all the woman were on the boat, shouldn't permission have then been granted to the 3 teenage boys who were reportedly standing on the deck near the boat? Before Mr Ismay, Carter and the rest of the older men were allowed on?

Or is it true the entire crowd just fled, just ran away before the boat was finished loading? Including at least one woman and two teenage boys, who must have known that they stood as much chance getting into this boat as any of the other remaining few? Especially at this late stage in the sinking! If we go by Hugh Woolner's statement straight after C was launched A-Deck promenade's lights went red and the deck started flooding.

I want to point out I am not labelling Ismay a coward or monster any other negative term here, nor any of the other men on the boat for that matter. I am just curious as to they mystery that is the launching of boat C and whether things were as deserted around her as some of the accounts say.
 

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