Jack Phillips' final moments

Arun Vajpey

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I am following Arun's line of thought quite carefully, and after Bride was recalled for the final time on 23rd May 1912, he was followed by Lightoller being recalled. He had listened to Bride giving his testimony for the final time, and surprise surprise Lightoller's meal break was at the time of Bride's acknowledgement of The Californian - Antillian message! So if Bride took the message to the bridge it would have been Murdoch or Lowe to whom it was delivered to, if Lightoller was telling the truth.

Julian
The highlighted part is the key phrase, Julian. IMO, Lightoller was NOT telling the truth.

IMO, of all the vague and ambiguous statements made by Lightoller during the inquiries, the one about him being conveniently away on a meal break when the Californian-Antillian message was (or could have been, if you prefer) delivered sounds the most made-up. I know that Lightoller had to eat at some stage but fitting that into a timeframe when a crucial message was delivered to the bridge on his duty period, supposedly to a man who died in the disaster and so could not challenge that statement sounds far too contrived to me. That was only one of many questionable statements that Lightoller made and you are assuming that Bride did not deliver the Californian-Antillian message to the bridge based almost entirely on the Second Officer's deposition.
 

Rob Lawes

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away on a meal break when the Californian-Antillian message was (or could have been, if you prefer) delivered
The same Californian message that would have arrived in Titanic and have been treated as an MSG prefixed message should, had Bride, by his own admission, not completely ignored it for between 20 and 30 minutes.
 

Julian Atkins

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There is no evidence that it wasn't delivered
Lightoller on 23rd May said on oath he had absolutely no knowledge of The Mesaba ice warning message, and stressed had he or Captain Smith known of it, it would have been of very great importance.

That is NOT "no evidence" that the Mesaba message wasn't delivered; it is testimony of Lightoller that he had absolutely no knowledge of it, as he also stated on oath in respect of The Californian -Antillian ice warning message.

The question - to follow Arun's line of argument - is whether it was Bride who was lying or Lightoller?

Cheers,

Julian
 
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Aaron_2016

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Thats exacly what I thought.

Adams on the Mesaba said he received the official receipt of acknowledgement from Phillips and Adams was confident the message was received. He just assumed that maybe Phillips would like to send him an additional message. Phillips didn't. We know there was nothing unusual about that because Bride had also received a message and acknowledged it with the official receipt with nothing more added. e.g.

A - I gave the usual acknowledgement of receipt, "R. D.," the Marconi signal.
Q - R. D. indicates "received"?
A - Yes, sir.
Q - And you said nothing more?
A - Nothing more.
Q - But you are certain that the Californian knew that you had this message?
A - Yes, sir.

Phillips did exactly the same with the Mesaba message. Adams thought there would be an additional reponse, but there wasn't. He waited (we don't know how long) and then returned to his duties.


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Aaron_2016

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Lightoller on 23rd May said on oath he had absolutely no knowledge of The Mesaba ice warning message, and stressed had he or Captain Smith known of it, it would have been of very great importance.

That is NOT "no evidence" that the Mesaba message wasn't delivered; it is testimony of Lightoller that he had absolutely no knowledge of it, as he also stated on oath in respect of The Californian -Antillian ice warning message.

The question - to follow Arun's line of argument - is whether it was Bride who was lying or Lightoller?

Cheers,

Julian
Which means that Lightoller possibly thought the message would have come to him, and it really could have been sent to Murdoch and not Lightoller. Like I said, there is still no evidence that the message wasn't delivered to the bridge. We don't know if Murdoch received it, in the same manner that we don't know if Murdoch could see the haze ahead which the lookouts and other's on the deck could see. All we can do is speculate without any evidence that Murdoch did or did not receive the ice warning. Lightoller said - "I was the officer of the watch and in charge of the ship when that message came over." However this does not mean he was the officer in charge when the message was delivered.


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Julian Atkins

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Mike Spooner will like this!

Bride got a relatively easy time at the British Inquiry despite being recalled a number of times.

Lets not forget the Attorney General was involved in a sordid share purchase and 'insider dealing' in Marconi USA Shares, and also treated G Marconi in his testimony with 'kid gloves', and the Attorney General's brother was General Manager of Marconi UK.

The UK press treated Phillips as a hero at the time.

The British Inquiry was scandalously corrupt in respect of all Marconi related matters.

Cheers,

Julian
 

Julian Atkins

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Adams on the Mesaba said he received the official receipt of acknowledgement from Phillips and Adams was confident the message was received. He just assumed that maybe Phillips would like to send him an additional message. Phillips didn't. We know there was nothing unusual about that because Bride had also received a message and acknowledged it with the official receipt with nothing more added. e.g.

A - I gave the usual acknowledgement of receipt, "R. D.," the Marconi signal.
Q - R. D. indicates "received"?
A - Yes, sir.
Q - And you said nothing more?
A - Nothing more.
Q - But you are certain that the Californian knew that you had this message?
A - Yes, sir.

Phillips did exactly the same with the Mesaba message. Adams thought there would be an additional reponse, but there wasn't. He waited (we don't know how long) and then returned to his duties.


.
Oh come on Aaron!

I know Adam's testimony and all he wrote, and your above selective extract is a bit like Jim Currie! (And I count both of you as friends and old adversaries!)

Adams clearly stated he was expecting a reply from Captain Smith to The Mesaba's Ice warning message and stayed listening for one to be provided, after Phillip's "RD". All he could hear was Phillips transmitting to Cape Race - no break - and no further reply.

Simples!

Adams was called to the British Inquiry late in it's proceedings specifically to clear up this matter.

Cheers,

Julian
 

Rob Lawes

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Adams on the Mesaba said he received the official receipt of acknowledgement from Phillips and Adams was confident the message was received. He just assumed that maybe Phillips would like to send him an additional message. Phillips didn't. We know there was nothing unusual about that because Bride had also received a message and acknowledged it with the official receipt with nothing more added. e.g.

A - I gave the usual acknowledgement of receipt, "R. D.," the Marconi signal.
Q - R. D. indicates "received"?
A - Yes, sir.
Q - And you said nothing more?
A - Nothing more.
Q - But you are certain that the Californian knew that you had this message?
A - Yes, sir.

Phillips did exactly the same with the Mesaba message. Adams thought there would be an additional reponse, but there wasn't. He waited (we don't know how long) and then returned to his duties.


.
Bride goes on to state that, as this message was no longer directly sent to the Titanic it was no longer treated as an MSG prefix and given the same priority a message of that type would therefore a formal response would not have been expected.

Adams heard Phillips return to sending messages. I repeat, we know from Adams that Phillips received the message but there is no evidence that it was sent to the bridge.
 

Julian Atkins

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Hi Arun,

You have constructed quite a formidable argument in respect of Lightholler. That is a very good thing to do to test the evidence.

There is something to me that doesn't quite 'click' with Lightoller's evidence to support your view, and that is what Lightholler did in later life and that is at Dunkirk. Rob will like this but I have watched the 1958 film version many times, and it has always seemed to me that the Bernard Lee character is loosely based on Lightoller. What we know in old age of Lightoller was that he was extremely courageous.

All the other players in this episode in 1912 sink into the background apart from poor old George Stewart Chief Officer on The Californian then later Captain and went down with the SS Barnhill serving as a third officer in March 1940.

I used to ride my bicycle daily to work past the sunken Medway Queen in the River Medina which vessel played a part in the Dunkirk evacuations in 1940.

Dunkirk should not be overlooked IMHO, and the part Lightholler played. I don't think that the 1936 BBC radio interview really reflects the character of the man, reading from a script.

Cheers,

Julian
 
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Arun Vajpey

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As I said before Julian, it is a matter of opinion. What you are saying against Phillips and Bride does not 'click' with me either.

A LOT of ordinary British were very courageous during the Dunkirk evacuation and Lightoller was one among them. That has absolutely no correlation to what happened 28 years earlier on board the Titanic.

For that matter, there were men with criminal records who fought and died in the wars. When called for, they were very brave too.

You are completely entitled to your opinion but whatever you say will not make mine about Lightoller change in the slightest. He is not the kind of man I would trust. Ever. Period.
 
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I don't think, (or I believe neither does Julian) that Phillips and Bride were entirely responsible. I feel, in accident investigation terms, their actions would have been described as contributing factors. That is factors that, while not completely responsible for the disaster, would have contributed to the likelihood of its occurrence.

Their actions fall right in line with the errors of countless others involved in the disaster. That does not speak for all their actions however, its also because of Phillips and Bride that the 706 survivors were able to be rescued by the Carpathia, add to that the fact that the wireless set broke down the previous night and the two men broke "the rules" and fixed it themselves rather than being content to just power up the emergency set for the rest of the voyage, which by the way was significantly weaker and wouldn't have been able to reach the Carpathia. Their resourcefulness and intuitiveness paid huge dividends there.

The UK press treated Phillips as a hero at the time.
Probably because he was a hero that night Julian. Whether Phillips delivered the Mesaba msg or not, him and Bride still stayed at their post in the Marconi room even after Captain Smith released them. They literally didn't leave until the final moments and the boat deck was awash, a brave thing to do in a ship growing ever so unstable and losing buoyancy. They were even losing power as the ship died from beneath them and they tried valiantly to gain some of it back by adjusting the switches in the silent room. Only after they could hear the wheelhouse flooding did they decide to abandon the shack (also after a very violent confrontation with a stoker who no doubt died in that room). Phillps died that night but I'm sure if he had survived, he wouldn't have been found guilty of any sort when it came to the disaster and the navigation of ship (the same unfortunately cannot be said for Captain Smith) which brings me to my final inescapable point.

The navigation of the Titanic was not the responsibility of the Marconi operators at all, that responsibility fell squarely on Captain Smith and his officers on the Bridge. For decades before wireless comm. ever existed, ships sailed that region of the North Atlantic and they weren't always ramming icebergs, why? Because the captain and officers of those vessels knew to prioritize safety over everything else. Titanic's officers knew they were in a substantial Ice field. They may not have known just HOW substantial, but they knew by the warnings they had received that it was a threat, and yet they steamed full speed ahead into it, did not slow down, and did not post extra lookouts. Why?

Because as I said in a previous post, they underestimated the threat of the ice ahead of them, but theres also another reason, because they were trying to beat the Olympic. Bruce Ismay was pressuring Captain Smith to speed up, how else do we explain Smith's action of giving the Baltic message (which belonged on the bridge) to Ismay. If Bruce wasn't pressuring Smith than this action makes no sense. They were trying to beat Olympics maiden voyage and get into New York tuesday night so that Titanic could make more headlines. IMO, all the evidence points to this, it was even a rumor among the passengers and crew at the time.

As survivor Frank Prentice once said - "I blame the bridge. That ship was thrown away."
Exactly Aaron, However I don't fully blame the bridge or anyone for that matter, for the happening of the tragedy. The haunting allure of the Titanic is that it was an event that by all means should have and could have been avoided, yet it happened. No matter how many notions of preconceived doom you read about, or the fact that some people canceled their trip at the last moment, the immensity of the disaster was completely unthinkable at the time. Heck, even after the ship struck the berg, very few people thought the ship would actually sink excluding the third class berthed in the forward bow or the many engineers and fireman battling the invasion of the sea in Boiler rooms 5 and 6.
The fact is many errors, mistakes, and faulty actions fell into place for it to happen, to the point to where the blame cannot be placed on one individual. Not even Bruce Ismay!

Hi Arun,

You have constructed quite a formidable argument in respect of Lightholler. That is a very good thing to do to test the evidence.

There is something to me that doesn't quite 'click' with Lightoller's evidence to support your view, and that is what Lightholler did in later life and that is at Dunkirk. Rob will like this but I have watched the 1958 film version many times, and it has always seemed to me that the Bernard Lee character is loosely based on Lightoller. What we know in old age of Lightoller was that he was extremely courageous.

All the other players in this episode in 1912 sink into the background apart from poor old George Stewart Chief Officer on The Californian then later Captain and went down with the SS Barnhill serving as a third officer in March 1940.

I used to ride my bicycle daily to work past the sunken Medway Queen in the River Medina which vessel played a part in the Dunkirk evacuations in 1940.

Dunkirk should not be overlooked IMHO, and the part Lightholler played. I don't think that the 1936 BBC radio interview really reflects the character of the man, reading from a script.

Cheers,

Julian
Lightoller never struck me as a bad guy at all. In fact, he's my favorite officer under Murdoch and Wilde. However I do get the sense when I read his testimony that he's trying to cover up some of his mistakes that night. In fact, I strongly feel that some of the evidence given at the inquiries was faulty and cover up's. I don't take it personally with Lights, I just think he was understandably trying to stick up for his company and mainly protect his job (he had a family to support after all). Where I take issue with Lightoller is his book and his supposed conversation with Phillips on collapsible B. As we've discussed on this thread, it is highly unlikely Phillips ever even made it to B.. So why would Lightoller make up this conversation with Phillips and his whole revelation to him that he received the Mesaba message and never delivered it, stuck it under a paper weight on his desk and that was that. Even if the unlikely convo took place, why would Phillips inexplicably mention THAT message? How would he know that message was so important at the time? He wasn't an expert on longitude and latitude like Titanic's officers.

Its very fishy that Lightoller fabricated that entire conversation with Phillips about the Mesaba message, he lied about something that didn't even need to be lied about or brought up in the book to begin with. Perhaps Lights was trying to cover up one of his mistakes that night, perhaps the Mesaba message did reach the bridge while he was on watch, but he didn't take heed to it. Or perhaps he just read it and put no more attention to it, why? Because they already knew they were in the ice field, they were speeding through to clear out of it as fast as possible because that was common practice for the time and they couldn't afford to slow down in order to beat the Olympic. Or perhaps the Mesaba message, as generally accepted, never reached the bridge and Phillips indeed forgot to deliver it. Lightoller in his later years never quite forgave Phillips and became sick of always hearing of the brave heroics of the wireless operators on the titanic and fabricated that story of meeting Phillips on B to bring more light to his (Phillips) mistake.

If its the latter, that's a low move on Lightoller's part. Why taint the memory of a dead man? It doesn't seem to fit Lightoller's character but WHY did he lie about that encounter?? It's probably why Bride took issue with it as well, and felt so compelled that he wrote in that newspaper bashing Lightoller.

 

Arun Vajpey

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Lightoller never struck me as a bad guy at all.

Its very fishy that Lightoller fabricated that entire conversation with Phillips about the Mesaba message, he lied about something that didn't even need to be lied about or brought up in the book to begin with. Perhaps Lights was trying to cover up one of his mistakes that night, perhaps the Mesaba message did reach the bridge while he was on watch, but he didn't take heed to it. Or perhaps he just read it and put no more attention to it, why? Because they already knew they were in the ice field, they were speeding through to clear out of it as fast as possible because that was common practice for the time.
I personally believe the quoted part above is what happened. I believe the first Californian message and very likely the Mesaba one reached the bridge while Lightoller was on duty. Since they "only" alluded to the ice field on which the Titanic was closing and since Lightoller believed that he had already taken enough precautions to that effect, he did not pay enough attention to those messages. But where I felt Lightoller ran with the hare and chased with the hounds was the ambiguous statements that he made at the inquiries, carefully measured to absolve himself as much as possible while subtly transferring the blame to men like Murdoch, Moody and Phillips, who were not in a position to challenge his account.

"Good guys" and "bad guys" are rather shallow, relative terms and in situations like on the Titanic, cannot be used logically. Having said that, I like to think of the Titanic and the people on board as forming a microcosm of life ............ and death. Knowing with hindsight what happened, we tend to form opinions about the people involved from the 'outside'; I do too. It is human nature to from impressions about people by their behavior in situations like that.

I do not hate Lightoller but cannot help thinking that he was an instinctive opportunist who always (maybe even subconsciously) had an escape clause in a difficult situation and would think primarily of himself. I admit that a lot of us do the same thing but not many would transfer blame in the manner that Lightoller did. I don't blame him in the slightest for surviving but do so for what he said afterwards.

As for Julian's allusion to Lightoller's role in the Dunkirk evacuation, it is a complete non-starter as far as the Titanic events are concerned. The two have absolutely no connection and during wartime there is a different mindset altogether. Lightoller was brave during Dunkirk yes, but so were thousands of other Brits, who I am sure had varying backgrounds (none of which was of any consequence at the time).

Getting back to Jack Phillips, while I disagree with Julian that he and Bride had to take the primary blame for the disaster, I don't consider his as a hero either. He did his duty, as did hundreds of others that night. There was some laxity in the wireless room in terms of liaison with the bridge but not to the extent that Julian claims IMO.​
 

Julian Atkins

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Some very good points above from Aaron and mackmitchell94.

The problem I have is as follows:-

The Californian - Antillian ice warning message sent by Evans at 5.35pm NYT, is that by his own admission Bride says it was also sent to Titanic but he initially ignored it.

Then Bride can't remember who he delivered it to on the bridge. No reply is sent from Captain Smith to Captain Lord.

Phillips gets the Mesaba ice warning message and acknowleges it with 'RD' to Adams on Mesaba, and Adams is quite clear that he can hear Phillips continuing to message Cape Race. No reply is sent from Captain Smith to Captain Clarke (Mesaba).

Adams' testimony is significant - he had kept the relevant Marconi Service Form which he had written on the back of contemporaneously, and it was quite damning evidence from one Marconi wireless operator against another namely Phillips. (Marconi would, I think, have been very unhappy about this).

The Marconi General Orders required priority to be given to 'navigation status' messages before commercial passenger messages.

they underestimated the threat of the ice ahead of them
That is because Bride and Phillips failed repeatedly to take 'navigation status' ice warning messages to the bridge!

You also have to consider the Ryan case.

Cheers,

Julian
 

Arun Vajpey

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That is because Bride and Phillips failed repeatedly to take 'navigation status' ice warning messages to the bridge!


Julian
I think that is too much of a blanket statement.

The Amerika message was delivered because Boxhall later stated that he knew about an ice warning from "the German boat Amerika"

The Baltic message was definitely delivered because Captain Smith had it and passed it to Ismay.....well you know the rest.

Admittedly Bride made contradicting statements about the Californian-Antillian warning especially with regard to the times, but he did say that he delivered it to the "officer of the bridge". It would have come in during Lightoller's duty period and I believe that he had seen it. Lightoller's later suggestions that it must have arrived on the bridge while Murdoch has relived him for dinner and being vague about whether the First Officer knew about to sounds very made-up.

The Mesaba warning is 50:50 but I believe that too was delivered just before Lightoller finished his duty. By then he very likely believed that they had taken all necessary precautions against icebergs and did nothing more. With hindsight later, Lightoller realized his error and concocted the cock-and-bull story about Jack Phillips' dying confession on Collapsible B. Taken together, Lightoller's statements about ice warnings sound like dialogue from a bad B-film.

The second ice warning from the Californian, sent directly to the Titanic, was definitely ignored by Phillips. No question about that.

But my point is that while there were some lapses on part of the Wireless Operators in their liaison with the bridge, it is completely inappropriate to claim that they "repeatedly" failed to deliver ice messages and hence were primarily responsible for the disaster.
 
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Julian Atkins

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The Mesaba warning is 50:50 but I believe that too was delivered just before Lightoller finished his duty.
Hi Arun,

You are ignoring the testimony and all the carefully retained contemporaneous documents of Stanley Adams of the Mesaba that George Turnball Deputy Manager of Marconi UK had before Bride was finally recalled, and Lightoller immediately afterwards, and before Adams gave evidence at the British Inquiry.

I am very sorry but Adams' testimony (and Turnball's) and Adams' documents proves Lightoller didn't receive the Mesaba ice warning message.

The Ryan case you also ought to consider, as Bride and all the surviving Titanic officers etc gave evidence in a civil claim for negligence and damages. The British Inquiry was simply that - an investigation as to Titanic's foundering (and a few other things). The Ryan case was a properly constituted civil trial of the evidence on the question of negligence.

Paul Lee incorporated the Ryan case evidence. To not do so is missing out a very vital body of evidence we have discussed in respect of just the British Inquiry regarding Phillips, Bride, and Lightoller and Boxhall.

Cheers,

Julian
 

Arun Vajpey

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You are ignoring the testimony and all the carefully retained contemporaneous documents of Stanley Adams of the Mesaba.
I am very sorry but Adams' testimony (and Turnball's) and Adams' documents proves Lightoller didn't receive the Mesaba ice warning message.

Julian
It 'proves' nothing of the kind. I have read Stanley Adams' testimony at the British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry. Robert Finlay at times seemed to be forcing Adams to say what the commission wanted him to say (22061)

22058. (Sir Robert Finlay.) The only other entry I will read is the one opposite the hour 7.50 relating to this message: "Exchanged. T.R.'s with s.s. 'Titanic' bound West, sent ice report, standing by while 'Titanic' calls Cape Race." What does "standing by" mean?
- "Standing by" means keeping on the instruments waiting for him to finish calling Cape Race.

22059. That he was in communication with Cape Race, and you were kept waiting while he went on communicating with Cape Race - is that it?
- No, not necessarily. I sent that message, and when I said "standing by" - that should read as waiting for a reply. I had had a received signal from the "Titanic," but I was waiting for a probable reply from the Captain.

22060. I see, it is quite right as it stands - "standing by while 'Titanic' calls, Cape Race"?
- Yes.

22061. That means that you were kept waiting. You got no answer from the Captain and you waited for some time while the "Titanic" was working with Cape Race?
- Calling Cape Race.


22062. And the answer never came?
- The answer never came.

22063. (The Commissioner.) I thought an answer did come then?
- Yes, but that was the operator's.

22064. And you waited for the answer to come, possibly expecting - I do not know - that an answer would come from the Captain of the "Titanic"?
- Yes, sir.

22065. It did not come from the Captain?
- It did not.

22066. It came from the operator?
- I should have had that in any case, but I thought that the Captain of the "Titanic" would have some news to communicate to us.

22067. (Sir Robert Finlay.) I think the two messages are here. The "Received thanks" came from the operator?
- From the operator.

22068. As soon as you sent your message?
- As soon as I sent my message.

22069. Then you kept on waiting, thinking that there might be a message from the Captain of the "Titanic"?
- Yes, to the Captain of the "Mesaba."

22070. And that never came?
- That never came.

The Commissioner:
That rather bears out the view that I am at present disposed to take about the "Mesaba's" message - that it never left the marconi room on the "Titanic" at all
.

All this does is prove that the Titanic received Mesaba's message while Phillips was working on Cape Race. Phillips sent an operator's acknowledgement and went on working on Cape Race while Adams was on stand by waiting for an official Captain's acknowledgement that did not arrive. That does NOT prove that Phillips did not hand the message to Bride to deliver to the bridge nor that he was even aware that Adams was waiting (if he really was).

But looking at 22061 clearly suggests that the commission wanted to believe that the Titanic's operators were not paying attention to the ice messages and that is evidenced by the commissioner's conjecture in 22070 that the Mesaba message did not leave the Marconi room. That is most certainly not proof that it didn't reach the bridge, nor that Lightoller did not receive it.

You are simply believing in what you want to believe.
 
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Mike Spooner

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Whilst I see so much attention is been drawn on the Mesaba message reaching the bridge or not, followed by the blame game between Lightoller and Phillips. Surely Smith must take the full blame! If Smith is relying on wireless messages for ice warnings ahead its for him to have full control of the wireless room messages been delivered to the bridge. This seems it was not happing. White Star may of offered a page boy to delivery the messages, but some reason was not happing too! Whether it was quicker to delivery your self than look for the page boy I don't know. However if only one wireless operator is duty that means he will leave the wireless untended to deliver. Now If I was the operator and had to run back and forward to the bridge, I soon get piss off and wait for while for than one to deliver. Plus the fact most important messages to be sent out are the ones from the paying passengers, as it is a private company in business to make money and was a quite nice little earner to!
At the same time who is delivering the incoming passenger messages?
That brings me back to the Captain failing to have full control of incoming ice warning from the wireless room.
I also asked my self not been a sea captain is this the right way the to navigate the Atlantic? After all they have cross the Atlantic for hundreds of years without wireless messages!
 

Julian Atkins

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That does NOT prove that Phillips did not hand the message to Bride to deliver to the bridge
Hi Arun,

Not sure why you refer to Evans in your above post!

Bride was in his bunk at the time.

At no time did Bride indicate he had any knowledge whatsoever of the Mesaba ice warning message apart from his letter to the press in 1936, which in any event was a comment on Phillip's practice as opposed to actual knowledge..

I have re- read Paul Lee's very detailed dissertation today

http://www.paullee.com/titanic/icewarnings.php

I would agree on re-appraisal that Lightoller was doing a cover-up job in his various accounts, but from a Lawyer's point of view you have to prove a link between what went on in the Marconi Room with Bride or Phillips, and what was communicated to the bridge. This causal link is missing, despite Lightoller no doubt being very evasive and not a good witness.

If you consider just the evidence of Bride on numerous occasions both on oath as testimony many times in the USA and the UK, and in the newspapers, you don't even have to consider Lightoller at all. Bride condemned both himself and Phillips.

Cheers,

Julian
 
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Arun Vajpey

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Not sure why you refer to Evans in your above post!
My apologies. It was a typo. I meant Adams, of course. This part had nothing to do with Cyril Evans but I was thinking about something else just before I responded to your post and made an error.

Going back to the conjecture by the Wreck Commissioner that the Mesaba message did not reach the bridge, the opinion would have been biased by their knowledge that elsewhere previously Lightoller had testified that he never saw it. IMO, Lightoller was lying when he said that but since that part of his testimony was more or less accepted at the time, it would certainly influence opinions on related matters subsequently.
 

Mike Spooner

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Hi Julian,
You mention from a Lawyer's point of view? You may well be right from the legal point of view. The two inquires were nothing more than complete shambles for the whole true and nothing but the true.
I think you know only too well to hold an inquiry it takes months of investigation beforehand, This never happened. US inquiry under Senator W Smith had only a day and half to investigate and put forward in the information. Quite frankly the inquiry was a case of just bumbling along for the true.
The UK inquiry was not better either for the whole true to. Been held within three weeks of the loss of Titanic. How possible can they gather in all the information in that time. Then the line up paid by the British Government to represent them was a formidable prosecution of a Judge,Lawyers and Solicitors. As for the seamen defence against this formidable legal line up stood no chance of a fair herring.
What poor Lightoller had be through was a miracle to survive the sinking even to the point of been be sunk down with the ship in that freezing cold water. Then having to hang on to an upside down lifeboat for a couple of hours for dear life was quite some story.
Was the welfare of the man ever discussed in the inquiry, and was he even fit enough to stand trail and face that formidable cross examining?
It doesn't surprise me that that he may of not told the whole true under those condition! Lightoller is smartest enough to know his career is on the line here as the loss of the Titanic is one less ship in the fleet where is next job to come from?
What Lightoller needs in the inquiry is a dam good smart Lawyer for his defence. As for the prosecution they know only too well the defence cannot afforded Lawyers. The prosecution know they have got all there own way and attempt to shift the blame away from Board of Trade, White Star and the Captain Smith to.
Those who think been cross examining in a court room in a witness box is a nice place! Think again can be a very threatening and intimidating position to be in for the whole true!