Jack Phillips' final moments

Arun Vajpey

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MIke, I partly agree with you in that both inquiries were shambles but don't share the "poor Lightoller" sentiment.

As for the inquiries, they had very little apart from survivor statements and wireless logs from other ships to work with. You have already seen how varied, confusing, implausible and sometimes ridiculous survivor accounts were. All the 'solid' evidence was a few miles beneath on the Atlantic Ocean floor and so unreachable at the time. But with more than 1500 people dead they had to hold formal inquiries and probably knew that it was highly unlikely for all the facts to come out. Under those circumstances, unless there was a major contradiction, the easiest thing was to use the surviving Senior Officer's testimony as the "keel" and work up from there. Lightoller would have been fully aware of that and being in the advantageous position of knowing who had survived and who did not, would have had ample time to prepare his testimony even while on the Carpathia.
 
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Julian Atkins

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My point that Mike and Arun have misinterpreted is that of a (legal - as in evidentially) 'causal' link between certain events/facts to reach some sort of finding.

There is no causal link in respect of the Mesaba ice warning message between the Marconi room and the bridge.

There is not a jot of evidence that it reached the bridge.

The timing is also awkward with Lightoller.

I will need to re-check the Ryan case, but Paul Lee says Adams waited a long time for an official reply from Captain Smith, and Phillips was all the time tapping away at Cape Race. The Mesaba message came in very close to Lightoller going off duty at 10pm on the 14th. Perhaps 8 minutes before at 9.52pm ships time. Adams' "a long time" one might ordinarily interpret as longer than 10 or 15 minutes. Adams was no doubt listening to Phillip's communications with Cape Race same as Evans testified he did after the 11.05pm ice warning message he sent to Phillips till Evans went to bed some 25 minutes later.

It would appear the Marconi training was not as thorough as it ought to be, and there is ample evidence of this that night and the following morning.

Very few did their job properly and kept proper records. Cottam kept no PV record once the CQD had been received, and The Virginian PV also has a nearly 6 hour gap! I have started piecing together Evan's PV on The Californian, but it is also quite clear he kept a very poor PV.

Cheers,

Julian
 
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Mike Spooner

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MIke, I partly agree with you in that both inquiries were shambles but don't share the "poor Lightoller" sentiment.

As for the inquiries, they had very little apart from survivor statements and wireless logs from other ships to work with. You have already seen how varied, confusing, implausible and sometimes ridiculous survivor accounts were. All the 'solid' evidence was a few miles beneath on the Atlantic Ocean floor and so unreachable at the time. But with more than 1500 people dead they had to hold formal inquiries and probably knew that it was highly unlikely for all the facts to come out. Under those circumstances, unless there was a major contradiction, the easiest thing was to use the surviving Senior Officer's testimony as the "keel" and work up from there. Lightoller would have been fully aware of that and being in the advantageous position of knowing who had survived and who did not, would have had ample time to prepare his testimony even while on the Carpathia.
As much I agree with you, but I feel Lightoller did not have ample time to prepare his testimony on the Carpathia. For a human to recover from that very traumatic experience from the freezing cold water will no doubt numb the brain to think straight for a while. Then to find he is the most senior officer to survive were the 200 surviving crew members become his full responsibility. There is some evident of lose talk between crew members has started what actually happen that night which does not look good for White Star and some of the officers. This he must stopped and make sure they keep there mouths shut for any future career within the company!
 

Mike Spooner

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My point that Mike and Arun have misinterpreted is that of a (legal - as in evidentially) 'causal' link between certain events/facts to reach some sort of finding.

There is no causal link in respect of the Mesaba ice warning message between the Marconi room and the bridge.

There is not a jot of evidence that it reached the bridge.

The timing is also awkward with Lightoller.

I will need to re-check the Ryan case, but Paul Lee says Adams waited a long time for an official reply from Captain Smith, and Phillips was all the time tapping away at Cape Race. The Mesaba message came in very close to Lightoller going off duty at 10pm on the 14th. Perhaps 8 minutes before at 9.52pm ships time. Adams' "a long time" one might ordinarily interpret as longer than 10 or 15 minutes. Adams was no doubt listening to Phillip's communications with Cape Race same as Evans testified he did after the 11.05pm ice warning message he sent to Phillips till Evans went to bed some 25 minutes later.

It would appear the Marconi training was not as thorough as it ought to be, and there is ample evidence of this that night and the following morning.

Very few did their job properly and kept proper records. Cottam kept no PV record once the CQD had been received, and The Virginian PV also has a nearly 6 hour gap! I have started piecing together Evan's PV on The Californian, but it is also quite clear he kept a very poor PV.

Cheers,

Julian
Julian,
I don't know if you are trying to blame the way Marconi operate the wireless service. As I have said before the Marconi is a private company and not a Board of Trade requirement. The company is very much the benefit for the rich paying passengers and seems to be a good earner for the company.
What is missing and yet to find out what was that private agreement between the two companies for the use and service requirement for the wireless operation?
This wireless is the same type as used on the Olympic under Smith for 9 return crossing, yet one only think the way the wireless service is run must of been quite satisfactory!
 

Arun Vajpey

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There is no causal link in respect of the Mesaba ice warning message between the Marconi room and the bridge.

There is not a jot of evidence that it reached the bridge.


Julian
There is no jot of true evidence that it did not either.

Just because Adams was waiting for a Captain's reply while Phillips was "tapping away" as Julian puts it, Adams nor anyone else could see what actually was happening inside the wireless room and in the immediate vicinity. How can Adams, Finlay or anyone assume that Phillips had not passed the message to Bride to deliver to the bridge simply because Phillips continued to send messages to Cape Race? Phillips had acknowledged receipt of the message and if he had a handful of waiting private messages to send, it is understandable, although admittedly inappropriate, that he did not ask Bride to inform the Captain. It was not even 10 pm and so very likely that Bride was awake when the Mesaba message arrived. What monumental effort would it have required for Phillips to pass the message flimsy to Bride and motion him to deliver it to the Bridge, which was not exactly a million miles away? Would Bride have to walk much further than he had to, say, go to the loo? (Mind you, using your line of argument, one could say that there is not a jot of evidence that either Phillips or Bride visited the toilet that night, simply because there isn't any proof to show that they did!)

Taking this argument from your viewpoint, what, in your opinion constitutes "evidence" in this case? Bride was vague about his times, Phillips and Murdoch died and so that leaves Lightoller. The Commission opined (and you seem certain) that Lightoller was telling the truth when he claimed that he never saw the Mesaba message. You are entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is - an opinion. My opinion (and just that) is that Lightoller did receive the Mesaba message but ignored it because he believed that he had already taken enough precautions about the iceberg threat. Later, when he realised that he had not, it was in his interest to keep mum about the message, which I believe is exactly what he did. But as I said above, it is just an opinion and not being claimed as evidence.
 

Arun Vajpey

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As much I agree with you, but I feel Lightoller did not have ample time to prepare his testimony on the Carpathia. For a human to recover from that very traumatic experience from the freezing cold water will no doubt numb the brain to think straight for a while. Then to find he is the most senior officer to survive were the 200 surviving crew members become his full responsibility.
If you look at Lightoller's early life, you will see that this was not necessarily the case. He had been through quite a few adventures and mishaps that included being shipwrecked in Brazil in the middle of a revolution and smallpox epidemic, another shipwreck that left him penniless and stranded in Australia, prospecting for gold in the Klondike etc. Doubtless the Titanic sinking would have affected him, but not to the extent of someone who lost a husband, relative or even all of their belongings. Lightoller would have been in more than enough frame of mind to think and plan what he might be asked in the inevitable inquiries and what he had to say.
 

Julian Atkins

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Phillips had acknowledged receipt of the message and if he had a handful of waiting private messages to send, it is understandable, although admittedly inappropriate, that he did not ask Bride to inform the Captain
So If Bride, as you propose, took The Mesaba message to the bridge, why did he no where ever state that he did this? All the evidence is to the contrary.

Also consider the Ryan Case which you have so far ignored.

Cheers,

Julian
 
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Arun Vajpey

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That is why I said that it is 50:50 about the Mesaba message reaching the bridge. Bride was vague about several things and this includes the Mesaba message. I did not ignore the Ryan Case; even struggled through the small print of the London Times report on it. When Bride took the stand about the Mesaba message, he said that it was standard practice to take all navigation related messages to the Bridge but did not actually say whether he took that specific message or not. In the London Times excerpt of the Ryan Case, there is no mention of Bride being cross-examined further to clarify his non-commital statement about the SOP. But considering the importance of the Mesaba warning and Stanley Adams going on and on about how Phillpis was continuing to send messages to Cape Race, surely they would have grilled Bride further about it. If Bride had confessed that he had not delivered the Mesaba message to the bridge or even said that he could not recall doing so, that point would have been seized upon and expanded. The fact that this did not happen and Bride was not further challenged suggests that they considered that it could have gone either way, maybe even accepted that he message did reach the bridge. Even during the British Wreck Commission's Inquiry, it was their conjecture, nothing more, that the Mesaba message was not delivered to the Bridge.

So, that leaves us with forming opinions. At 09:52 pm, Bride was off duty but very likely not asleep when the Mesaba message arrived. It would have taken Phillips mere seconds to attract bis colleagues attention and pass the message to him while Phillips himself continued working on Cape Race. It would have taken Bride no more than a minute and very little effort to walk across tot he nearby Bridge and had the message to the duty officer - Lightoller. During the Ryan case, Bride himself said that they had no messenger boy to take messages to the bridge but in any case the bridge was quite close to the wireless room. But by being vague in his statements Bride shot himself in his foot when he did not need to.

If Lightoller had not made-up that stupid story about Phillips hanging onto Collapsible #B and confessing about the Mesaba message, I would have also believed that the warning did not reach the bridge. But the fact that Lightoller concocted that story meant that he had a reason for doing so and that could only be to exonerate himself. By inference, that would mean that Lightoller must have known about the Mesaba message and that could have only have happened if Bride had delivered it to the Bridge whist the Second Officer was on duty. By being so vague about his own statements, Bride unintentionally helped Lightoller's cover-up attempts.
 
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Rob Lawes

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Bride was off duty but very likely not asleep when the Mesaba message arrived.
I'm sorry but that's a rediculous statement. They were four days into their voyage and had been watch keeping the whole time. Looking at their routines they were getting around 5 hours sleep a day with perhaps a little off watch time at various periods during daylight hours.

Bride had already stated that due to Phillips having to work with little extra time away from the key he had agreed to go on watch at midnight instead of the normal 2am. There is very little chance that Bride was awake at 21:52 that evening and no way that Phillips would have woken him to deliver the message.

Speaking as someone who started his Navy career working in communications and watch keeping, every minute in bed is precious. Two things I was told early in my career were always eat and sleep when you get a chance as you can never tell when either will happen again.

Mike,

As Julian has posted on a number of occasions Marconi, as we're all wireless companies, we're governed by regulation. The international conference on radio telegraphy held in Berlin in 1906 clearly laid down the regulations governing how wireless stations must operate by international law.

Marconi were not at liberty to disregard these regulations for the sake of a telegram from Lady Fairfax Smith Jones requesting a report on the health of her dog Fifi because that was worth threepence more than an Ice Warning. The Berlin regulations clearly state service messages should be treated with a higher priority than private messages.

Regards

Rob
 
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Rob Lawes

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But the fact that Lightoller concocted that story meant that he had a reason for doing so and that could only be to exonerate himself
But that makes little sense when you consider he raised the story over 20 years after the events.

Lightoller, if he had received the message had gotten away with it for all that time and would have had absolutely no reason to say anything about it. Bride had been through 2 inquiries and the Ryan case and said nothing about the message when it would have helped his case immensely if he had done so. None of the other potential witnesses said anything about seeing it or had not survived the sinking. Lightoller's best defence was silence. Why he chose to say anything about it is difficult to imagine but I don't think it had to do with him wishing to clear his own name.
 
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Julian Atkins

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Hi Arun,

You might not have the full report of the Ryan Case. I have read it quite a few times but my bookmarking is not too good! I don't often bookmark stuff on my computer, yet I have probably 100 bookmarks for The Californian stuff. I definitely found the full report of the Ryan case.

The Times Law Reports came out daily (except for the weekend effect) then printed weekly and still do and are a precis in most cases.

Cheers,

Julian
 

Arun Vajpey

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But that makes little sense when you consider he raised the story over 20 years after the events.

Lightoller, if he had received the message had gotten away with it for all that time and would have had absolutely no reason to say anything about it. Bride had been through 2 inquiries and the Ryan case and said nothing about the message when it would have helped his case immensely if he had done so. None of the other potential witnesses said anything about seeing it or had not survived the sinking. Lightoller's best defence was silence. Why he chose to say anything about it is difficult to imagine but I don't think it had to do with him wishing to clear his own name.
I know what you are saying. I have said several times that IMO the point of whether the Mesaba message was delivered to the Bridge was 50:50; the reason I feel that Lightoller knew about it was the stupid Phillips story. The fact that it was raised over 20 years later makes no difference - in fact it should have raised more eyebrows in my opinion than if it was made during the official inquiries.

You say, quite rightly, that if Lightoller had received the Mesaba message but done nothing about it, he would have had no reason to say anything about it. I agree and accordingly, he declined knowing about it during the inquiries. Why then, did he feel motivated to come-up with that cock-and-bull story in 1934 about Phillips' 'confession' when there was no reason for him to draw any attention to it? Could it be because the point was gnawing in his mind and he felt that he had to come out with some sort of "explanation" to be exorcised of it while not incriminating himself?

Just like you cannot imagine why Lightoller chose to mention the Mesaba message in his memoirs, I too cannot imagine why Bride said nothing about it during the inquiries. It might be because he was still not fully recovered from the ordeal and not yet clear in his mind about times and message sources and so did not want to commit himself to something that may well be challenged further. In the position that Bride found himself after the disaster, one cannot blame him if after repeated grilling he decided to "be done with it and get out". After all, none of the dead were going to come back and his testimony was not going to make a huge difference or change things for anyone or anything.
 
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Julian Atkins

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Just like you cannot imagine why Lightoller chose to mention the Mesaba message in his memoirs, I too cannot imagine why Bride said nothing about it during the inquiries. It might be because he was still not fully recovered from the ordeal and not yet clear in his mind about times and message sources and so did not want to commit himself to something that may well be challenged further
Hi Arun,

I've got a very bad cold today so plead some indulgence if my train of thought and reasoning is a bit iffy.

Lightoller's 1935 autobiography contains this account of meeting and a conversation with Phillips on the upturned collapsible lifeboat.

I think we can all probably agree this part of his autobiography is a pure work of fiction, same as Bride's dramatic account of a stoker trying to remove Phillip's life jacket.

Bride was questioned at both Inquiries very closely, and recalled at both a number of times. He had every opportunity to state he took the Mesaba message to the bridge, but never did so because at the relevant time he was in his bunk, especially considering he had agreed to relieve Phillips at midnight rather than 2am that night due to the repairs carried out the previous night.

Had the Mesaba message been delivered to the bridge, and because of it's extreme importance to the bridge, it would have been forwarded on to Captain Smith, and he would have provided an official Captain to Captain reply.

Adams was waiting for this, but no reply was received. Indeed he made a particular note of all this on the back of the 'marconigram'/ Marconi Service Form that was examined at the British Inquiry, and he was then cross examined over all this.

Now, my point I suggest that for Adams to implicate his fellow Marconi wireless officer Phillips must have taken some guts to do, and no doubt was not viewed very well by Marconi, Adam's employer. Also, for Bride to not mention whatsoever that the Mesaba message was taken to the bridge was also to cast aspersions on Phillips. His chum and hero!

Bride testified to a lot of nonsense and contradicted himself so many times.

Bride could have easily added to his testimony "Jack told me had delivered the Mesaba message to Lightoller on the bridge" [But he did not do so]

Or "Jack kicked me out of my bunk when I was asleep to take the Mesaba message to Lightoller in the freezing cold when I was only wearing my pyjamas and an overcoat" [But he did not do so]

Cheers,

Julian
 
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Arun Vajpey

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Julian, you have raised the same points before and in my previous post, part of which you have quoted, I have said what a possible explanation for Bride not saying anything about delivering the Mesaba message might have been. Remember that Bride was still recovering from the ordeal and the Mesaba message was only one of the many things that he was questioned about earlier during the inquiries. Since the collision was not a pre-planned event and considering what they all went through, I would not be surprised if Bride became confused about the times and message sources. At some point he probably decided that he had enough and that any mention of delivering the Mesaba message might have resulted in further questioning sessions, something he could do without and would not have made any difference at the end of the day.

That is my conjecture of course but if it sounds outlandish to you, please read your own post once again about the not very well veiled implication that Bride was casting aspersions on Phillips and the bits that follow.
 

Julian Atkins

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Hi Arun,

The Mesaba message...

I am sure this has not gone unnoticed by others, but Bride's aspersions that reflected badly on Phillips were omissions by Bride - or at least complete silence till his newspaper letter in 1936 which in any event added nothing to what Bride knew of the Mesaba message personally.

To my mind Bride knew absolutely nothing of the Mesaba message till he was confronted with the actual documents - Adam's Marconi Service Form to Titanic - at the British Inquiry quite late in the British Inquiry.

Lightoller's later autobiography is clearly as a result of his testimony at the British Inquiry when both he and Bride were recalled over the Mesaba message and much else besides resulting from Marconi Deputy Manager George Turnball giving his testimony on all the so far accumulated Marconi radio messages sent to HQ.

Lightoller must have pondered over why, knowing the Mesaba message was so vitally important as it was read out to him at the British Inquiry, it never got to him. I don't accept this as a reason for his lying in his autobiography - there are clearly issues over this - and in any event the critical passage in respect of Phillips putting the message under a paper weight only appears in a few issued copies of his autobiography. His publishers no doubt recalled contentious first prints and did a new first print run

Cheers,

Julian
 
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We know for sure Phillips never took to the bridge The Californian's final ice warning message around 11pm on the 14th because he sent Evans "DDD". Evans somewhat watered this down in his 2 testimonies (knobbled by Marconi?). Chris Burton, Marconi expert, was clearly of the view Evans had been sent "DDD" by Phillips.

As for The Mesaba ice warning message, Adams, the wireless operator, gave evidence of this to the British Inquiry, and got a reply that Phillips had got his message, then waited for an official reply from the Captain of Titanic, but none was forthcoming. He gave clear evidence that he heard Phillips continuing to work Cape Race; therefore by clear implication Phillips did not send the message to the bridge, and clearly no MSG from the bridge was sent by Phillips as a reply.

I have not the slightest doubt that Lightoller nor anyone else on the bridge knew nothing whatsoever of The Mesaba ice warning message, same as they knew nothing of the first ice warning message from The Californian, or it's 11pm ice warning message.
I agree with this. Bride, whose testimony was a complete disaster in its own right, was too busy with his accounts to take down an iceberg warning form the Californian and it was only when he heard the Californian tell the Baltic the same message did he bother to write it down, by that time it wasn't an official message.

I agree to this but strongly feel that the Mesaba message was received by Lightoller and not Murdoch, the former being the SO on watch at the time. I also believe that with his mind on other issues like freezing of fresh water and liaising with the lookouts, he neglected to post or even share it. In Paul Lee's article there is mention of how Lightoller gave statements about asking Moody to calculate when they would reach the ice field only to disagree with him, how Murdoch relieved him at a crucial time to have dinner and then being rather vague about what he told the First Officer about the ice warnings. You might just accept one of those statements but taken together, one cannot but get the feeling that Lightoller was covering up for himself, subtly passing the blame (while not appearing to actually do so) to men like Murdoch and Moody who did not survive and so were not in a position to contradict him.
You can't have it both ways. It's unreasonable to think the wireless room, being then only Jack Phillips would've ran an iceberg warning up to bridge in the last 10 minutes of Lightoller's watch, when he already demonstrated working Cape Race was far more important. Californian's operator said as much when Phillis told him to "keep out" and "shut up"

I also believe that with his mind on other issues like freezing of fresh water and liaising with the lookouts, he neglected to post or even share it."
It's called being a conscientious officer. Making sure someone checks the water or warns the lookout about ice and to pass it along the watch until dawn is doing your job. While Lightoller was away for dinner (which he was allowed to have) Murdoch was so worried about a light he had someone close the door so they could see better. Neither men would get a warning mentioning "much heavy pack ice and great number large icebergs also field ice" and say "oh well" and toss it away. without passing it on to either the captain or jr officers.

Lightoller knew the officers by sight, but I'm sure he would struggle to remember their surnames if they never met before the voyage or never cared to socialise. e.g.

Lightoller
Q - Are you quite well acquainted with the officers of this company?
A - I naturally know them by sight.

Similar to the other crew e.g.

Mr. Jones
Q - Do you know the man who was the lookout?
A - No, sir; I only knew him by sight.

Mr. Haines
Q - You do not remember just who they were?
A - I know their faces; but I do not know their names, sir.
You are misquoting Lightoller. That exchange at the inquiry was about the officer of the WSL, not the officers of the bridge which he would most certainly know because he worked with all of them before, except Lowe. Here is the entire exchange:

Senator SMITH.
When did you see Mr. Ismay, with reference to the attempted lowering of this boat?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I saw Mr. Ismay, as I stated to you, sir.

Senator SMITH.
Only once?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes, sir.

Senator SMITH.
And that was about 20 minutes after the collision?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes, sir.

Senator SMITH.
And there were no other passengers on that deck at that time?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Not that I noticed. I should notice Mr. Ismay naturally more than I should notice passengers.

Senator SMITH.
Why?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Because I know him.

Senator SMITH.
How long have you known him?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Since I have been in the company.

Senator SMITH.
Are you quite well acquainted with the officers of this company?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I naturally know them by sight.

Senator SMITH.
Does he know you?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Oh, he knew me; yes.


Lightoller on 23rd May said on oath he had absolutely no knowledge of The Mesaba ice warning message, and stressed had he or Captain Smith known of it, it would have been of very great importance.

That is NOT "no evidence" that the Mesaba message wasn't delivered; it is testimony of Lightoller that he had absolutely no knowledge of it, as he also stated on oath in respect of The Californian -Antillian ice warning message.

The question - to follow Arun's line of argument - is whether it was Bride who was lying or Lightoller?

Cheers,

Julian
I would be more inclined to believe the officer.
 

Julian Atkins

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Hello Julie,

I am very pleased that you approve of my analysis.

I should perhaps add there was a further ice report message sent from The Parisian to Titanic which Phillips sent on to Cape Race to the Allan Line, which Phillips failed to action by way of sending it up to the bridge.

I don't know what message it was from The Parisian Cottam on the Carparthia said he stayed up to receive.

However, I would suggest that we know a lot more about what went than in 1912 so far as the Marconi messages are concerned.

Cheers,

Julian
 
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On Sunday Apr 14, at 1:54pm Titanic ATS, a report from Baltic was received and later acknowledged by Capt. Smith of reported icebergs and field ice in 41.51 N, long. 49.52 W. This was only about 2-3 miles north of Titanic's track line from the Corner point to the Nantucket LV. Capt. Smith and all senior officers were well aware that Titanic was headed into a region of ice that afternoon and evening. To suggest that the information in the Mesaba message would have made any difference whatsoever in how Titanic was navigated that night is pure fantasy. Lightoller decided to attach “the utmost importance” to that message, hinting that if he or any other watch officer had been made aware of its content, it somehow might have changed things (BI 16892). In the Wreck Commissioner’s report on the loss of the SS Titanic, Lord Mersey wrote: “This message [from Mesaba] clearly indicated the presence of ice in the immediate vicinity of the ‘Titanic,’ and if it had reached the bridge would perhaps have affected the navigation of the vessel." That's pure nonsense based on what Lightoller told them. The simple truth is that if Capt.Smith was really worried about ice in his path he could have taken the ship much further south like Capt. Moore did instead of turning at the Corner at 5:50pm. The night was perfectly clear and the sea was calm. Smith and his watch officers assumed that they could spot ice in enough time to be avoided and therefore no need to slow down or divert course until ice was sighted. An assumption that proved to be very wrong.
 

Julian Atkins

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Hello Sam,

Having now subsequently bought a copy of 'Titannic - A Centennial Reappraisal', I cannot question the logic and common sense of your above post as to Captain Smith's approach ie if Phillips had done his job properly it would have made no difference.

But had Captain Smith not given the Baltic message to Ismay till requesting it back over 6 hours later around 7.15pm on the 14th, and had it been duly posted and noted in the Chart Room when received and on the Chart, would this have not alerted other Officers?

Had Phillips and Bride brought to the bridge all the other ice warning messages (MSGs) and also other ice reports not MSG, would this not have alerted the bridge (Officers) to something quite unusual that night?

Arguably the most important message - from the Baltic - which was relaying a message from another ship - was not posted in the chart room and on the chart. No one knew about it apart from Captain Smith and Ismay apart from a few passengers. I will need to review Paul Lee's extensive research on this on his website (not in his book, sadly). With this caveat, my view tonight is that Captain Smith never posted the Baltic message on the chart in the chart room and kept it with him when he then went to dinner with the Wideners that Sunday evening.

After Captain Smith had had no doubt a most enjoyable meal with the Wideners that Sunday evening it would not have beyond any Officer, had they been in full knowledge of the facts from the Marconi messages, to question Captain Smith.

Had Phillips and Bride got to the bridge the other messages, and had the other Officers been aware of them, and the Baltic's message, it is surely not beyond reasoning to expect things to have gone a bit differently?

Cheers,
Julian
 
Mar 22, 2003
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it is surely not beyond reasoning to expect things to have gone a bit differently?
Different in what way? Lightoller said that he expected to be up to the ice by about 9:30, and Moody, according to Lightoller, expected them to reach ice by 11. They reached ice by 11:40 as it turned out. To me, its almost like saying that if more rockets were sent up from Titanic at more frequent intervals, it would have made a difference somehow.