John Montgomery Smart


Alex Smart

Member
Apr 15, 2012
5
0
31
United Kingdom
From what I have seen on this website, it looks as though John montgomery Smart was one of those that was buried at sea.
It is not understood by me that a passenger, wether 1st or other class having a ticket that the company had NO idea as to which cabin that passenger was allocated too.
Has any one any idea as to which cabin Smart was given?
Also, does anyone know who else lived at the address in New york that he gave as his?
TIA
Alex
 
Dec 2, 2000
58,643
471
453
Easley South Carolina
So long as they knew the location of their cabin, I doubt they gave it a lot of thought. After the fact, I think it likely that the survivors were quite happy to just be alive. 1500 others weren't as lucky. Given enough time, it seems to me entirely conceivable that they wouldn't remember specifically which cabin they were assigned to.

Hell, I can't even remember my room number of the last hotel I stayed in and that was just last month!
 

Bob Godfrey

Member
Nov 22, 2002
6,045
65
308
UK
I think Alex was referring to the lack of surviving records of the cabin allocations. Not really surprising, though, as these were determined onboard and the ship's records were obviously lost (apart from the 'Cave list'). Alex, JMS may have been buried at sea, or at Halifax, Nova Scotia as an unidentified body, or most likely his body was never recovered. As far as I can see, the only address he gave was his 'last known' in Yorkshire.
 

Alex Smart

Member
Apr 15, 2012
5
0
31
United Kingdom
Agree , the passenger (if survived ) may not have known.
BUT and to me UNTHINKABLE that the Shipping Company or the Seller of the ticket would not know to which cabin the the passenger had been allocated.
Imagine 100 passengers turning up in the same cabin just because they had a ticket but no cabin had been allocated. They just chose a particular cabin same as all the others, just does not run.
 

Bob Godfrey

Member
Nov 22, 2002
6,045
65
308
UK
Alex, White Star certainly did know the cabin allocations at the time, but the records have not survived. For a few weeks after the sinking Titanic was a subject of world-wide fascination but was then largely forgotten until the revival of interest in more recent years. Any records relating to the Titanic had no special significance at the time when White Star's archive was destroyed following the take-over by Cunard in 1934. The best source on this subject is Debbie Beavis' book 'Who Sailed on Titanic?'. This won't provide you with John Smart's cabin number, but might help to explain why it is now unknown.
 

Ben Holme

Member
Feb 11, 2001
714
2
173
Hi Alex,

The reason Smart's cabin number did not appear on the cave list (a list of cabin allocations found on the body of bedroom steward, Herbert Cave, when recovered by the Mackay-Bennett) may have been because he booked passage on Titanic later than the majority of first class passengers, i.e. the document may have been written up when there were still latecomers waiting to book.

I'll venture, however, that Smart may have occupied a cabin on E-deck, as many 1st class man did who paid the fare he did for his accomodation. £26, 11s was relatively low in comparison to the sums others paid to be accomodated in suites on B and C decks. Frederic Seward, who was acquainted with Smart (the details of the men's friendship have eluded me) is also a strong candidate for E deck accomodation on the strength of one of his accounts, so it is possible the two men were birthed not far from eachother.

Regards,
Ben
 
Dec 7, 2000
1,348
9
223
Ben,

I'm curious about the Seward account you mentioned that possibly suggests he was on E deck. I have seen few accounts by Seward let alone any that hint at his possible deck of cabin. I think I read one account where he turned up at the Smoking room from his cabin below. I thought it gave the impression that he used the aft staircase and that his cabin was on C deck. The inner cabins there were cheap too. However he may very well have made the trip from E deck all the way to the Smoke Room.

In any case, 84 first class passengers who did sail on Titanic (in 1st class) were not included on the Cave List. This was because the list was printed a few days before sailing day and anyone who booked after the list was printed was missing. HOWEVER a few passengers who booked before the list was printed are also missing. In fact at least 12 known names of people who booked before the printing are missing from the Cave list. These are the Astors and servants, the Wicks, Thornes and the gamblers. In fact there were most likely about 6 gamblers or at least 5 who booked to sail on Titanic, so that would make 15 missing names -- take note that these are the known ones, there could have been a few more.

Either way there were just under 70 people who booked within 2 or 3 days before Titanic's sailing day, and Smart was one of them. White Star Line would have had these records in their offices, and of course the pursers on the Titanic would have had all the up to date information which would have included any and all cabin changes and upgrades.

However if the White Star Line had a list of the cabins booked and allocated to passengers, I don't see why this information was never submitted to the Limitations of Liability case, since the passenger list with ticket numbers and prices was submitted for all classes. I'm sure White Star Line knew they would have had to keep anything relating to the Titanic for the legal suit coming up.

Regards,

Daniel.
 

Ben Holme

Member
Feb 11, 2001
714
2
173
So sorry about the delay in replying to your post above, Daniel. Can't think how I missed you.

I wish I could say I had the crucial article on me, but as is often the case when posting on ET, I was working from memory regarding the Seward account. However, I do recall that the suggestive clues regarding his cabin oriniate from an article relating specifically to W.T. Stead, in which Seward mentions some fascinating conversations he had with the editor over dinner one night at the purser's table. He refers specifically to the evening of April 14th, following an enjoyable meal at his usual table, and returning afterwards to his cabin "several decks below" . When the collision with the berg occured, he remembered a long scraping noise which caused immediate alarm. I suggested E-deck becasue his personal experience of the ominous impact with the berg paralells several other passengers birthed on E-deck, i.e. loud and scraping, arousing them instantly from their sleep (Molly Brown, Harder, Chambers to name a few). Passengers berthed on higher decks tended to have remembered a somewhat milder rumble and rarely mention any noise.

If I find the article in question, I will certainly post it here.

I always find it frustrating that so many passengers did not appear on the Cave list, or indeed on any other written or spoken piece of evidence that might pinpoint a passenger to a specific cabin. It remains tantalising at the same time, though, as it opens the doorway for some enjoyable and in-depth sleuthing, as I'm sure you experienced with the E-23 mystery!

Best Regards,
Ben
 
Dec 7, 2000
1,348
9
223
Ben,

It is frustrating that the "Cave List" has so many passengers missing from it. As I said above, I strongly believe that is becase it was printed before Titanic's sailing day, it was probably printed on Saturday (April 6). It is "Third Proof" which suggests there were two others before it, and possibly more proofs after it as well.

There are two such lists that survive to this day, the one recovered from the body of steward Cave, which is where the list gets its name from, and one was saved by steward Faulkner. Both lists are the Third Proof. One would think that a more updated proof would have been printed by sailing day, but both lists that survive are the preliminary copies printed 3 - 4 days before Titanic sailed.

Unfortunately we know very little about the lists, perhaps there were only 3 proofs printed for some reason, and that's why the only version that servives is Third Proof. We may never know.

Daniel.
 

Jack Richards

Member
Jan 23, 2011
4
0
31
I realize that this is an old thread but it seems an appropriate place to post. I'm sure it will be moved if I'm wrong.

I am interested in John M Smart aka J Montgomery Smart whose age is given as 56 in his ET biography. Can anyone tell me the source of this please as I can't find anything anywhere else to confirm it.

I'm a new member and this is my first post so I'm sorry if this seems like a stupid question. I'm probably not looking in the right places.

Thanks
Jack

[Moderator's note: This message, originally posted in a different thread, has been moved to this pre-existing thread concerning Mr. Smart. MAB]
 

Similar threads