Kareem


L

lise madore

Guest
In Hull, Quebec, Canada, a woman named Kladych Kareem, was known to be a survivor on the Titanic. She immigrated to Canada in 1904. She was born May 1 1881 in Libanon. She was married to Mohamed Kareem. They owned a clothing store. She was known as La Grand-Maria.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Well, if she isn't listed on the passenger list (and she doesn't appear to be), then it's highly unlikely she was on the ship.


Cheers,
happy.gif


-B.W.
 

Mike Herbold

Member
Feb 13, 2001
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Lise:
I'm having trouble figuring out exactly which passenger you are talking about.

As you probably know, there are no strict rules for Anglicizing names from the Semitic lands. Arabic and Hebrew have their own alphabets, and they are written from right to left, backwards from English. The guttural sounds of Semitic languages can sound like someone clearing their throat to Western ears. So, what we call the "K" sound can just as logically be translated as "K", or "Kh", or "C", or "Q", or "Xh" or even a hard "H".

And since Arabic and Hebrew do not have, strictly speaking, any vowel sounds in their alphabets, what we call the "E" sound could be written in English with a single "e", a double "ee", a "y", or an "i".

So Kareem could just as easily be spelled, and often is, using any combination of those sounds. For example, it could be Khareem, Karim, Kharym, Carreem, Qareem, etc. And none of them would be incorrect.

English speaking people might appreciate this by trying to decide which of the following is correct: Cathy, Kathy, Katie, Kathee, Kathi, Cathey, Kathey, Catheye, or Cathie.

Mohamed can be spelled Mohammed, Muhamid, Muhammad, etc.

When I worked in the Middle East, and tried to write my simple American name Mike in the local languages, the locals usually laughed at the funny-sounding "Meek" or "Muk" and asked what it meant.

Place names are even worse. Jerusalem is actually pronounced "Yarushalayim" by locals. The Biblical town of Beersheva can be pronounced as 'bare', or 'beer', or 'burr' and the end can sound like 'sheeba' or 'sheeva' or 'cheva' or 'sheba'.

You spelled it Libanon, where I would say Lebanon.

Two years ago, John G. Moses wrote a book about the 174 Lebanese passengers aboard Titanic called "From Mt. Lebanon to the 'Sea of Darkness'". He points out that even the nationality of the passengers from that area was confused. Lebanese were classified in some cases as Syrians, Arabians, Armenians, and even Turks.

In the appendices of his book, Moses includes a number of Titanic passenger lists. First, he uses Michael Findlay's list, and extracts the Lebanese passengers. On that list are:
Caram, Joseph (Kareem) and Caram, Mrs. Joseph (Maria Elias) whose destination was Ottawa, Canada. No age is listed.

Then he has a list of 'Arab Sur-Named Passengers' compiled by a Arab American journalist, and the names Kareem Caram and Joseph Kareem Caram are on that list. The two-word name Maria Elias also appears, but so do John Elias, Joseph Elias, and Elias Elias.

Then there is an interesting list compiled by an Arabic Archivist from the pages of "Al-Hoda," an Arabic paper of the ealy Lebanese immigration period. On this list, the only names resembling Kladych Kareem or her husband are:
Karam, Katirin
Muhammad, B.

In her new book "Who Sailed on Titanic?", Debbie Beavis seems to indicate that Joseph and Maria Elias Caram, or Caran (Debbie gives them number 198 and 199, or 199 and 200) may be the passengers you are referring to, but the ages don't appear to match.

Then, horror of horrors, there is even the possibilty that Kladych was not even really on the Titanic, and told people years later that she was. There are many instances of this type of thing happening. Hopefully, in this case, its more a matter of language confusion.

Can you tell us a little more about Kladych Kareem so we can find her on the passenger lists? Perhaps you can add new information that is not yet generally known.
 

Mike Herbold

Member
Feb 13, 2001
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After re-reading your post, I notice now that the lady you referred to survived the Titanic. The Canadian Carams were both lost, so that's obviously not who you meant.