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Kitty the Airedale

Discussion in 'Real Dogs' started by Dan Y, Aug 16, 2000.

  1. Dan Y

    Dan Y Guest

    I was wondering how it could possibly be that Madeline Astor in lifeboat 4 could of possibly seen her dog Kitty running down the deck of the Titanic ,she could not possibly of seen the decks of the Titaic from the lifeboat floating on the
    sea , could she???
    and were any Dogs bodies salvaged from the sea
    by the Mackay Bennet ???? or other ships
  2. Dan, it would depend on how close the boat was to the ship and whether or not the power was still on at the time.(IT was up until two minutes befor the breakup and the final plunge.) So long as the lights were on, it would be very possible to see what was going on out on deck. Transatlantic liners tend to be lit like a Christmas tree. Whether or not Madiline actually saw the dog or simply thought she did...well, I suppose we'll never really know.

    As to whether or not any pets bodies were recovered, I've seen no record of it anywhere and i strongly doubt it in any event. It was all the Makay-Bennet could do to store all the human bodies they recovered. I don't think they would have made an effort to pick up somebodies pet.

    Michael H. Standart
  3. Dan

    Dan Member

    Thanks Michael thats a help
  4. Dan

    Dan Member

    Thanks Michael thats a help
  5. Anytime Dan. Sharing what we know is the whole idea.

    Michael H. Standart
  6. Dan

    Dan Member

    Mike do you Know if Mrs Cardeza was awarded her compensation claim I have wondered that for a while .I'm particularly intrested in first class passengers
  7. Hi Dan; I'm afraid I haven't followed the course of the civil litigation at any great length. My understanding is that few people were compensated for much of anything beyond some lost baggage, and I could be wrong on that. Hopefully, somebody else can help. Dave, George, Inger...anyone? Help!

    michael H. Standart
  8. Dave Gittins

    Dave Gittins Member

    I don't have the figures but claimants in the USA settled for a percentage of their claims and a pretty low percentage it was. Cardeza claimed $177,352.74 but collected much less.

    BTW, it occurred to me today that the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam might have been in the registered mail. Anybody got any thoughts?
  9. Dan

    Dan Member

    Thanks for your help anyway I was also wondering if Mrs cardeza managed to rescue any of her property while the ship went down ?? I know her maid Ann Ward managed to take a couple of things any one know what those things were ??also when did Mrs Cardeza die unfortunately it does not say in her biography on site ???
  10. Dear Dan,

    Charlotte Cardeza never indicated just what she was able to save from the Titanic. At the Thomas Jefferson Medical College in Philadelphia, the Cardeza Foundation has the lifeboat numeral "3" from her boat, as well as a baggage ticket. If Charlotte and her son were interested to save these items following their rescue, I doubt that at least some of the Cardeza's possessions made it into the lifeboat with them. This is only a guess on my part.

    Charlotte Cardeza died on 1 August 1939, and her son, Thomas, on 6 June 1952. Anna Ward died on 25 December 1955.

    I hope this information will help.

    Michael Findlay
  11. Dan

    Dan Member

    Thanks Mike , I have just finished reading the book "women and children first" and in the chapter about Charlotte Cardeza there is a passage from Mrs Speddens diary were she says that there was a fat women in the lifeboat who never stopped talking and who had a flask of Brandy and she never shared it with any one historians think that she is referring to Mrs Cardeza.I very much doubt this firstly Charlotte Cardeza was not fat she was slim and elegant and seemed quite vein
    secondly I don't think that Mrs cardeza was selfish either surely she would of shared her drink at least with her son and maid.
    and thirdly surely Mrs Spedden would of Known Mrs Cardeza ,she was occuping the most expensive suite on board and she was one of the richest ladies on board with the most dazzlinq jewels.
    what do you others think ????
  12. One has to be careful what drinks you share, even in a tight spot. I seem to remeber reading an account of one of the survivors(I don't remember who it was) in ANTR about this. He saw another nipping on a flask and asked for a nip for himself. Understandable in light of what had just happened, but what he thought would be whiskey or something like that turned out to be essence of peppermint. Surprise, surprise!

    Michael H. Standart
  13. You misread a little the story, Dan. The 'fat' lady was Mme. Hélène Baxter, who was rescued in lifeboat #6. Before entering the lifeboat, her son, Quigg, gave her a flask of brandy 'in case they might need it for the night'. Mme. Baxter being someone who tended to be seasick, she certainly drank a bit too much of brandy, and the effect on her might have been that she didn't want to share the flask with anyone else.

    That's my theory. Regards,

    Charles Provost
  14. Dear Dan and Charles,

    I'm glad that you read the passage in "Women and Children First." However, the photograph of Charlotte that appears on the ET, and in Judith Geller's book, was not taken around the time of the Titanic disaster. In 1912, Charlotte was a rather "plump" older woman. I have photographs of her throughout the years but everyone thought the color one of her sitting in a chair was the better one to use. That picture was taken when she was a young woman, and many years before she sailed on the Titanic.

    It is not known for certain that Mrs. Cardeza was the woman swigging brandy from her flask, but it is highly probable. Mrs. Cardeza was a rather difficult woman (as described by those who knew her). She was very definite minded and blazed her own trail. She went on safari expeditions, sailed her own yacht, and journeyed deep into the jungles of Africa. While certainly a wealthy woman who was capable of displaying grace and style, she was capable of being her own boss and voicing her own mind.

    One would think that Mrs. Spedden would have known Mrs. Cardeza but I don't think their paths ever crossed. Although Mrs. Cardeza and her son occupied the most expensive suite on board the Titanic, no survivors ever recall them. Mrs. Cardeza didn't fit the society matron role. Mrs. Cardeza, in my opinion, was rather a high society outcast given her hobbies, interests and personality. I, personally, do not believe Mrs. Spedden knew who Mrs. Cardeza was, and if she did, perhaps did not name her in her account in order to protect her identity from negative reporting.

    Charles, Mme. Baxter was in boat #6, and had no connection whatsoever to the incidents remembered by Mrs. Spedden in boat #3. Many researchers and I believe that if Mrs. Spedden wasn't referring to Mrs. Cardeza, there are no other possible candidates for the role of the "fat lady."

    I hope that I was able to clear some of the details of Charlotte's life for you. I would suggest that one read's Charlotte's biography again and then try to imagine her as being the woman in question.

    I look forward to your thoughts on this...


    Michael Findlay
  15. Dear Dan,

    I forgot to include a few thoughts about your comment regarding Mrs. Cardeza not offering any of her brandy to her son and maid (if she was in fact the woman believed to have been in boat #3 with the flask).

    Firstly, it is highly unlikely that Anna Ward, Mrs. Cardeza's maid, would have even made a public remark that her employer had a brandy flask with her. Although Anna Ward gave several interviews to Philadelphia newspaper, she praised Mrs. Cardeza's bravery during the sinking. What more would you say about the person who signs your paycheck?

    Secondly, Charlotte's son, Thomas, never gave an interview about the Titanic disaster. I have never seen anything written about his own actions aboard the ship. Much of what we know about the Cardezas comes from Anna Ward's interviews. It is uncertain just how reliable all of that information is.

    According to employees at the Thomas Jefferson Medical College in Philadelphia, Thomas Cardeza was rather embarrassed by many of his mother's actions over the years, though he loved her very much. He thought his mother "highly eccentric." She tried to dominate Thomas' life, and there were many years of absolute silence between mother and son over many issues. Thomas went to live in Europe for extended periods just to escape his mother and her odd behavior.

    Of course, the two reconciled in Charlotte's later years. Shortly after her death, Thomas willed hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Thomas Jefferson Medical College in Philadelphia in his mother's name. The Cardeza Foundation still remains in operation to this day, providing financial availability to the study of hematology and other blood related disorders.


    Michael Findlay
  16. Hello Michael, thank you for the note. I do know Mrs. Baxter was in boat 6, I was only stating how two stories might have mingled together. The description of the fat lady with a flask of brandy is pretty similar to the story of Mrs. Baxter. But if really the statement do come from Mrs. Spedden's diary, I don't doubt she told us the truth.

    Even if Mrs. Cardeza's path never crossed Mrs. Spedden's somewhere else than on the Titanic, I highly think Spedden got to know Cardeza on board. Being in the better suites on board and having an immense fortune, probably everyone in First Class knew Mrs. Cardeza by name, perhaps also by sight.

    Now the fact is that Mrs. Spedden didn't mention Mrs. Cardeza by name in her statement. If it wasn't just a mark of respect, I personally think the woman we are talking about was Mrs. C.M Hays. She was not 'slim' in 1912, and I remember reading that we was constantly shouting the name of her husband to the other lifeboats, to see if he was rescued.

    What do you think, Mike?

    PS. Are the accounts already on their way, or you still have to send them? Just asking...
  17. Dear Charles,

    I always believed that if Mrs. Spedden knew that the "fat lady" was Mrs. Hays than she would have been more sympathetic to her behavior. Mrs. Hays reportedly was calling out to other boats if her husband was there. Surely Mrs. Spedden would have realized that the poor woman was in a state of great distress and I doubt "they would have pulled her down" when she attempted to be the first one up the rope ladder on the morning of rescue.

    I still feel that just because Mrs. Cardeza occupied the most expensive suite on board, it does not mean that Mrs. Spedden would have known her. Speaking of the Baxters in an earlier post, they occupied one of the more expensive suites on board as well, but who mentions them by name? Nobody really knew them, so it is possible that Mrs. Cardeza's name meant nothing to Mrs. Spedden - regardless of her accommodation. Of course, Mrs. Spedden may have very well have known who Mrs. Cardeza was but chose not to publicly name her in her account out of respect. We just may never know.

    Your accounts will be in the mail by this weekend when I get a chance to go the post office. I've been busy ever since I've gotten back from Montreal this past weekend.


    Mike Findlay
  18. Good point, Michael. You probably got it right. But I don't know, it's hard for me to imagine Mrs. Cardeza in this state of histeria (having left no one of her relatives on board) with a flask of brandy in her hand. That's an interesting debate, though, and I hope the truth will come to light if we only get the chance one day to corroborate the statement of Mrs. Spedden via the account of another passenger that was in lifeboat #3 that night. For the moment, Mrs Cardeza seems the most likely possibility, although I have always imagined the 'fat' lady as Mrs. Hays. Anyway, thanks again for sharing your knowledge with us.


    PS. Thanks for the documents you'll be sending this weekend for me. I appreciate it. :)
  19. A little note off topic, Mike: Would it be possible for you to email me some stories that Mrs. Marjorie Newell Robb might have told you about her experiences during the trip? I already know about her wearing a long train gown for the dinner on April 14. I just love to hear that sort of little details. Regards,

  20. Dan

    Dan Member

    Thanks everyone for the reponse I honestly don't believe that it was Mrs Cardeza but it is a pity that we will never now...