Lady Duff-Gordon


Yes indeed, Ben. The quote I referred to comes from the Liberty Magazine.

I see that Randy and you mentionned Mrs. Candee's account. I'm a bit puzzled here, because I've never heard of an account by Helen Candee other than the letter from which Colonel Gracie used some captions for his book, “The Truth About the Titanic.” Might I ask you the reference of the account you were talking about, and where I may obtain a copy?

Thank you,

Charles
 
Oops, the first part of my last message was supposed to be posted in another topic (the one talking more precisely about the restaurant, where you asked if the Harris quote came from her 1932 account).
 
Ben,

I forgot to acknowledge your thanks. You are of course very welcome for the Meyer passage/excerpt from Lucile's book. Please do feel free to contact me privately if you have any other questions about her book/article/personal accounts.

Charles,

Helen Candee wrote a fairly well-known account (I thought)for Collier's magazine called "Sealed Orders" in 1912 sometime. I'm sure someone else here might have specific date and page info. I think it may be cited in the excellent and thorough bibliography of Wyn Craig Wade's book "End of a Dream," but I don't have that book at hand to check.

Randy
 
Hi Randy, thanks for the useful information. Do you know where I might be lucky obtaining a copy? Would I have to contact Collier's Magazine directly? Thanks again,

Charles
 
Charles,

Collier's is defunct. But a large city or university library should have Collier's either in bound volumes or on microfilm. My memory is that the issue containing Helen Candee's article was soon after the disaster, either a late April or early May edition (the magazine was weekly). Her article was the main feature of that issue I think as the cover had a large photo of Lifeboat 6 approaching the Carpathia (the one so often reproduced). Its been a few years since I read her piece but it left a powerful impression on me as it was quite extensive, brilliantly written, and very poignant. It is certainly one of the better early accounts.

I hope you can find it. If not, and I happen to run across it in my research, I'll make copies for you.

My best,

Randy
 
Hello Randy,

I live in Quebec, Canada, and it would be rather difficult for me to dig in the archives of an American library.

I would be glad if you could make copies, let me know if you're still interested in sending the documents. How much would you charge me for the Candee account? Anyway, we should discuss that privately, to keep the initial subject on topic. Please contact me at charlespro@yahoo.com

Warmest regards,

Charles
 

Ben Holme

Member
Hi Randy,

Thank you for your kind offer to share material Re. Lucile's account/biography. Most appreciated :) I hope to contact you very soon regarding her account.

Hi Charles,

Helen Candee's account can be viewed on the web at the Pellegrino site:

http://www.charlespellegrino.com/candee.htm

It's novelistic in style and one of my all time favourites for its poingancy. It was acquired by Walter Lord in 1986.

Hope this helps,

Regards,
Ben
 
Hi Ben,

I've already been through the Pellegrino website, but they only have excerpts from her account. I'm missing the whole introduction, and her description of her time before the fateful night. That's why Randy would be helpful in sending the whole document. And I do think that the account as posted on www.charlespellegrino.com, was exagerrated by Pellegrino himself. The author is known the embellish the truth and to add different details that were not included in the original version.
 

Ben Holme

Member
Hi Charles,

Thankyou for drawing that to my attention. I must say I'm surprised. It seemed to be a fairly full account and included references to the four days prior to the collision - meeting Kent, Woolner and other "Our Coterie" members etc. However, if the Pellegrino account is only excerpts, I would very much appreciate seeing the entire document. I'd be more than willing to reciprocate with something.

Regards,
Ben
 
Charles and Ben,

I think there's been a misunderstanding. I don't know where I might find a copy of Collier's in Texas, though I'm sure some big-city library here has it. But I am only near Dallas, which does not have it. I'm afraid Ft. Worth, Austin, and Houston are a bit out of the way for me.

I read Candee's article in New York years ago when I was at school. I offered to send Charles a copy should I run across the magazine on future research trips and I will certainly do so.

However, as Collier's is an English language magazine, I can't think it would be impossible to find in a Canadian library. So you might want to poke around for it there. If one can find British and French publications here, I'm sure Canada has American magazines.

Charles is certainly right to say that the Candee account on the Pellegrino website is suspect. It reads like a dime novel. Surely Candee was above such drivel. There's too much recounted conversation to be completely reliable as history.

Randy
 
Hi Randy,

Yes, I did misunderstand your message. Sorry for consusing everything.

I'll try to go and dig in the Montreal archives when time permits. I'll let you know if I come with any good results. The thing is, the Montreal archives are probaly more concentrated around the French newspapers (La Presse, le Devoir, le Journal de Montreal, le Soleil...).

Randy, I also don't trust at all the way the Candee account is written. It seems too romanesque. As we would say in French, “Il y a anguille sous roche!”

Warm regards,

Charles
 

Ben Holme

Member
Hi Randy,

Sorry for the confusion. I live in the South-East of England so I may be in a better position to secure a copy of "Colliers magazine", if it is an English journal. I'll let you both know if I manage to locate one.

Re. Candee's "Pellegrino" account. I had initailly put the romanesque style of narrative down to the fact that Mrs. Candee was a writer, but I'd agree that, although conversation was more of an art form in 1912, some of the dialogue reads something like Beryl Baimbridge's fictional "Every Man For Himself". At least that's what struck me when reading it. I did find, however, that it was an good source for references to other passengers whom she did not know by name (Nourney, Artagaveytia, Carrau etc).

Best Regards,
Ben
 

Inger Sheil

Member
Had a sticky beak at the online catalogue for the British Newspaper Library and - frustratingly - there seems to be a gap in the Colliers issues for right around you-know-when!
 
Aaaaaaah!!! Inger you were my only hope, just as I was about to contact you regarding Collier's!!!

Oh well, that's not the first time this has happened to me. So many times I've tried to find journals and they're promptly missing the vital issues!! Inger, L'Illustration might be familiar
happy.gif


Anyway, the Collier's piece is March 4, from memory. I even have a page number somewhere, but everywhere I've searched does not have the journal.

As for the Pellegrino site, I got a bit p****d off when I read her account there. TOO many holes. IF indeed this is an authentic piece of work, written by none other than Helen Candee herself, then she says she was on A deck. Fine. The she says Kent was in B37. Not fine. If she had the memory to remember Kent's cabin correctly, why did she forget her own number. My theory is that Pellegrino when making up or embellishing her account left out "her" cabin not to be hammered in case he got it wrong. In his book Ghosts of the Titanic, he has her in an unnumbered cabin on "B" deck. So much for sticking to the story ... not to mention his other mess of the cabin numbers in his book. Rheims who he also has on B deck, in his Limitation and Liability interrogation CLEARLY puts himself on A deck.

Also, there are too many other discrepancies and VERY suspicious things that "Candee" says about other people. It's been a while since I've hyped myself up about that account and cannot remember all the things I've come up with. But I'm very suspicious of the fact that Kent refused taking some of Candee's belongings that she asked him to. Also, Randy if you remember, that's why I asked whether ladies' clothes in those days had pockets. If not they all had bags, and a large number of ladies had some kind of bags with them, some even took their dogs! So I can't see Kent doing what he did in her account. Also, as per Woolner's testimony, it is clear HE went to her cabin with her.

Other than the (made up - in my opinion) conversations of that account, there is nothing new there, merely an attempt to corroborate well known accounts into a believable story, loath in (made up) conversations and ... you have yourself a never before seen Candee account!

In fact the account doesn't even corroborate very well with known accounts. I haven't read her Collier's account, but according to Gracie she met Kent on the stairs between A deck and B deck, where she gave him the miniature, and not had to force him to take it in her cabin!

Also what’s this business about her doing a Jack and Rose (by herself). In her account she supposedly goes to the front of the ship. James Cameron was unaware of this when he incorporated this into his movie. In reality, whether Candee, Cameron or Pellegrino like it or not, this area was STRICTLY out of bounds to the passengers of ANY class. This was a working area with machinery and no one but the experienced crew member was to go there. Pellegrino probably made this up and added it to give credence to James C’s scene ... they’re good pals at the moment anyway.

Daniel.
 
Daniel,

I agree completely with your views on Pellegrino's version of the Candee account.

Also, you asked in an earlier post I think re: what manuscripts might have been among those Candee lost on Titanic and which she included in her claim against White Star. I believe one must have been at least a working copy for her ms of "The Tapestry Book" which was published in London late in 1912 and in the US sometime the following year.

Charles,

I finally located my copy of Wade's book and in the bibliography I found the Candee article listed. It's entitled "Sealed Orders" and was featured in Collier's Weekly, May 4, 1912, pp 10ff.

Since I have the full citation, what I will do is place an interlibrary loan request for this article and when it comes in, I'll send you and Ben a copy. I will also send a copy to Daniel as he first asked me about this article some time back.

Ing,

Have you ever read the Candee article? If it will be of interest to you in your research on the officers, I will be happy to send you a copy as well. I certainly owe you for the help you've been to me. (Many thanks especially for sharing with me the "imposter" story. A great scoop!)

All my best,

Randy
 
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