Last sighting: C.E Bell

[James Murdoch]

Hi everyone,

I hope you could clarify something for me, did Chief Engineer Bell remain at his post until the end, or was he sighted on deck late into the sinking? I always thought he chose to remain at his post however earlier I was reading through a thread regarding the D deck gangway door and Ioannis mentioned that a witness even mentioned Bell (being topside). Does anyone have any concrete information regarding his final movements?

Also, a belated happy thanksgiving to everyone on the other side of the pond

Regards,

James.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

While there is no doubt that all the engineers or board the Titanic did their duty to their level best, the scenario of all of them remaining deep within the bowels and dying there is more legend than fact. I believe there were a few surviving witnesses who saw many of them, including Chief Engineer Bell on the boat deck towards the very end. It must be true because they were by then released from their duty and after a certain point it made no sense for them to remain deep below in the engine rooms. I cannot mention names of all witnesses but one significant one was Greaser Fred Scott who was hauled on board Lifeboat #4. This is the relevant excerpt from his testimony at the British Inquiry.

5687. Do you mean the Officers?
- Yes; the engineers that were on watch.

5688. Then, if I understand it aright, all the engineers had come up too?
- They were all at the top.

5689. Did they come up when you came up?
- Just afterwards, but some of them went up on the boat deck with me. They came up the ladder just behind me.

5690. When you say they were standing there, where were they standing?
- Just against the electric crane aft.

5691. Will you indicate to us on the model where that is?
- Yes, just about here. (Pointing on the model.)

5692. On the boat deck?
- On the boat deck.

5693. That is the last you saw of them?
- That is the last I saw of them.

I think Lightoller mentioned somewhere in his book that he saw Bell and some other engineers on the boat deck towards the end. That book is not with me at present and so I am not able to confirm.

 

[James Murdoch]

Many thanks for the prompt and detailed reply Arun.

 

[Thomas Krom]

While there is no doubt that all the engineers or board the Titanic did their duty to their level best, the scenario of all of them remaining deep within the bowels and dying there is more legend than fact. I believe there were a few surviving witnesses who saw many of them, including Chief Engineer Bell on the boat deck towards the very end. It must be true because they were by then released from their duty and after a certain point it made no sense for them to remain deep below in the engine rooms. I cannot mention names of all witnesses but one significant one was Greaser Fred Scott who was hauled on board Lifeboat #4. This is the relevant excerpt from his testimony at the British Inquiry.

5687. Do you mean the Officers?
- Yes; the engineers that were on watch.

5688. Then, if I understand it aright, all the engineers had come up too?
- They were all at the top.

5689. Did they come up when you came up?
- Just afterwards, but some of them went up on the boat deck with me. They came up the ladder just behind me.

5690. When you say they were standing there, where were they standing?
- Just against the electric crane aft.

5691. Will you indicate to us on the model where that is?
- Yes, just about here. (Pointing on the model.)

5692. On the boat deck?
- On the boat deck.

5693. That is the last you saw of them?
- That is the last I saw of them.

I think Lightoller mentioned somewhere in his book that he saw Bell and some other engineers on the boat deck towards the end. That book is not with me at present and so I am not able to confirm.

There is one big misconception with the account however. If you read Greaser Frederick William Scott (1884-1915) his entire account from top to bottom you can see that with all engineers he referred to all engineers he knew by sight, which were only a total of eight of them. He only knew Senior second engineer William Edward Farquharson (1873-1912) by name of this group:

5831. How many engineers do you think there were?
- Eight I saw.
5832. Officer engineers, I mean?
- About eight I saw on deck.
5833. There are 36 I am told, all told?
- I think so.
5834. So when you said you saw all the engineers you must have meant all the engineers that you knew?
- Yes.
5835. You saw only eight of them?
- I saw eight of them.
5836. Out of 36?
- Yes.

Before that he was asked:

5711. How many of them did you see?
- I should say there were about eight of them.
5712. There are 20 or more in the ship?
- Yes.
5713. You think you saw eight, of whom you can remember the name of one?
- Yes.

So he only referred to having seen eight engineers on the boat deck, not all.

 

[Thomas Krom]

I think Lightoller mentioned somewhere in his book that he saw Bell and some other engineers on the boat deck towards the end. That book is not with me at present and so I am not able to confirm.

Here is the statement:

About this time I met all the engineers, as they came trooping up from below. Most of them I knew individually, and had been shipmates with them on different ships of the Line. They had all loyally stuck to their guns, long after they could be of any material assistance. Much earlier on the engine-room telegraphs had been “Rung off”—the last ring made on board ships at sea, and which conveys to the engine-room staff the final information that their services below can be of no further use, that the case (from whatever cause) is hopeless. At the same time it releases engineers and stokers from duty, leaving them free to make the best of their way up to the boats. Of course, in theory, each had his appointed place in a given boat.

Since the Titanic disaster, each undoubtedly has. But before that tragedy brought home to the world the utter fallacy of the “unsinkable ship” I’m afraid that many “appointed places”—as far as lifesaving equipment was concerned—were just so much theory, concocted ashore with a keen eye to dividends.

Certainly there was no sailor who ever sailed salt water but who smiled—and still smiles—at the idea of the “unsinkable ship.”

There was little opportunity to say more than a word or two to the engineers. Up to that time they had known little of what was going on, and it was surely a bleak and hopeless spectacle that met their eyes. Empty falls hanging loosely from every davit head, and not a solitary hope for any of them.

In point of fact, they were lost to a man, not one single survivor out of the whole thirty-five.

This happened after lifeboat number 4 was lowered.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

So he only referred to having seen eight engineers on the boat deck, not all.

D'accord. He did say that some of them came up the ladder behind him. Still, there is something that intrigued me. Scott said that he saw the engineers standing against the electric crane aft. That part of the stern must have been very crowded towards the end and I am surprised that the greaser was able to recognize them in the crowd.

 

[Seumas]

Wasn't Bell named as having been on deck very late on by a couple of ratings from the engineering department ? Wally Hurst possibly being one.

Sorry, but I'm a big, bad revisionist and firmly believe we need to weed out all this romantic nonsense from the Titanic story.

Arun has already expressed many of my thoughts on this above and I am in full agreement with him.

I don't buy this whole "Rorke's Drift at sea" event that is supposed to have happened in the engine room for one second. Journalists simply made their mind up that if they all died then they all must still have been down there when the ship plunged - too simplistic and at odds with what was seen.

One thing I do wish people would grasp is that the Victorian and Edwardian British adored tragic heroes and loved to exaggerate how they met their end.

The false premise of the Titanic's engineers all dying at their posts is really no different from how British press portrayed the soldiers who tried (and failing) to save the guns at Colenso, or the colonial policemen of the Shangani Patrol trying (and failing) to hold out, or General Gordon trying (and failing) to save Khartoum. I could name quite a few more.

Edward Smith actually took the time to release Rowe, Bride and Phillips from their important duties which I find interesting .....

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Journalists simply made their mind up that if they all died then they all must still have been down there when the ship plunged - too simplistic and at odds with what was seen.

I agree completely. I do agree that the Engineers were brave and conscientious and did their duty for as long as they could. But after a certain point, there was no need to needlessly sacrifice themselves and so when there was nothing more that could be done, they very likely came up to the boat deck in two or three batches. Sadly of course, it was too late for them by then.

I agree that writers and journalists tend to sensationalize and romanticize tragic events and like Seumas, I despise that; in fact I find it quite insulting at times. Best to stick to facts; after all, we are all human and can better understand each other that way.

Edward Smith actually took the time to release Rowe, Bride and Phillips from their important duties which I find interesting

I think by the time he released the two wireless ops, the signals had become so weak that they were no longer able to receive and it was very likely that their signals were not being received either. So, there was no point in them trying any more.

As a retired GP, I have come across such situations where we have to accept the inevitable. I have tried countless CPRs after a cardiac arrest in my years as a doctor and only a very small fraction were successful but even then with very few exceptions (like electrocution, kids etc) the prognosis was always poor. So, we tried for as long as practical and then had to stop.

 

[Thomas Krom]

Wasn't Bell named as having been on deck very late on by a couple of ratings from the engineering department ? Wally Hurst possibly being one.

Sorry, but I'm a big, bad revisionist and firmly believe we need to weed out all this romantic nonsense from the Titanic story.

Arun has already expressed many of my thoughts on this above and I am in full agreement with him.

I don't buy this whole "Rorke's Drift at sea" event that is supposed to have happened in the engine room for one second. Journalists simply made their mind up that if they all died then they all must still have been down there when the ship plunged - too simplistic and at odds with what was seen.

One thing I do wish people would grasp is that the Victorian and Edwardian British adored tragic heroes and loved to exaggerate how they met their end.

The false premise of the Titanic's engineers all dying at their posts is really no different from how British press portrayed the soldiers who tried (and failing) to save the guns at Colenso, or the colonial policemen of the Shangani Patrol trying (and failing) to hold out, or General Gordon trying (and failing) to save Khartoum. I could name quite a few more.

Edward Smith actually took the time to release Rowe, Bride and Phillips from their important duties which I find interesting .....

Personally I am more in the middle on the matter. There is undeniable evidence that some engineers made it onto the boat deck, however I personally don't believe it can be taken as a fact that all engineers made it onto the boat deck. We know that chief electrician Peter Sloan and a few of his men (assisted by Artie Frost and William Parr) were still at the main feeder switchboard on the orlop deck during the last 15 to 10 minutes of the sinking when greaser Alfred White was ordered to see how it was going on the upper decks.

To say all of them died at their post is false, but I wouldn't take it as a fact that all made it up to the upper deck. But this purely based on that we miss vital information.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I wouldn't take it as a fact that all made it up to the upper deck

That's probably true but there is the possibility that those engineers who did not make it to the boat deck simply couldn't do so. That could also be true of some other crew members and certainly true of many passengers for a variety of reasons. Nobody on board had a death wish and I don't like to make it appear as if some of the engineers were better heroes than their colleagues. After all, all of them died in the sinking.

We should read pp 114-118 of Sam Halpern's Centennial Reappraisal book to get a clear mental picture of the atmosphere on board the Titanic before the final plunge. Up until almost 02:15 am, the ship, though dipping steadily by the bow, seemed like it could survive a lot longer than it actually did - about 5 more minutes. As Sam depicts, there came a point in flooding when the Titanic suddenly lost its longitudinal stability, resulting in that sudden forward and downward lurch of the bow that so many survivors described. This also resulted in a large sternward displacement of a large body of water in the form of a 'wave'. Those on board, both on the boat deck and elsewhere, did not expect such a sudden and catastrophic turn of events and were literally caught out.

 

[Thomas Krom]

That's probably true but there is the possibility that those engineers who did not make it to the boat deck simply couldn't do so.

They had only two ways to escape to the boat deck, through the reciprocating engine casing up the catwalks or the turbine engine room casing up the catwalks (and then going out on E-deck, take the stairwell to near the second class pantry, going forward to the galley and first class pantry and then taking the stewards stairwell up to the boat deck).

From 1:20 on groups were ordered up, however unlike claimed there weren't any engineers between them. They were only firemen, trimmers and greasers who met up with the third class chief steward, James Kieran, and were supplied with lifebelts.

 

[Seumas]

Tom with respect, I kind of get the impression that you think Arun and I are insinuating cowardice or neglect on the part of the engineers and electricians when they all finally abandoned the engine and boiler rooms. We are not.

What one must consider is the human factor involved in this.

We are focussing on how the vast majority human beings actually behave in such situations, and that's why this whole false legend of the engineers dying at their posts is so unrealistic to us.

Arun also makes an excellent point above - the engineers and electricians were not any different from anyone else aboard the ship, they had the same hopes, fears, the same physical, mental and intellectual strengths and weaknesses as anyone else. They weren't some clan of a superior beings or anything like that.

It's just so wildly unrealistic to expect some sort of "last stand" in the engine room. The basic fact is that human beings like to survive, they like to take a chance to save themselves when they can.

 

[Thomas Krom]

Tom with respect, I kind of get the impression that you think Arun and I are insinuating cowardice or neglect on the part of the engineers and electricians when they all finally abandoned the engine and boiler rooms. We are not.

Not at all, not at all my friend. I only disagree with taking it as factual that all the engineers and electricians were on the upper decks and would never insutate anything of the kind that these men were cowards if they would save their own lives as that is not the type of person I am. I would never, and I can guarantee that, never even intend to imply that sort of things as their story is quite personal to me. I fully agree with that it is a legend that all of them died at their posts however.

Arun also makes an excellent point above - the engineers and electricians were not any different from anyone else aboard the ship, they had the same hopes, fears, the same physical, mental and intellectual strengths and weaknesses as anyone else. They weren't some clan of a superior beings or anything like that.

And I never claimed they were anything like that. However, I do believe in times of peril there are these every day heroes who want to save other lives instead of their own. There are many examples like that on that fateful night.

 

[Seumas]

That's alright Tom, we'll just agree to disagree on this one

 

[Lancastrian Navigator]

As a retired GP, I have come across such situations where we have to accept the inevitable. I have tried countless CPRs after a cardiac arrest in my years as a doctor and only a very small fraction were successful but even then with very few exceptions (like electrocution, kids etc) the prognosis was always poor. So, we tried for as long as practical and then had to stop.

For 20 years I did pre-hospital life support for trauma casualties. There comes a point with certain cases where you've exhausted all the possible alternatives and have to prepare mentally for the inevitability of death. Usually, with experience, that transition occurs without turmoil. In the worst multiple fatality incidents it is common to wake a few nights later in a cold sweat. No doubt most of the rescued experienced the same aboard Carpathia.