Darrin Nieves
Guest
Can anyone please supply any info you may have on Pauline Aubert(Benjamin Guggenheims' alleged mistress. Why is she such a mystery and does anyone have a picture of her to post on the site.? Thanks.
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Leontine Pauline Aubart
- Thread starter Darrin Nieves
- Start date
Gavin Bell
Member
Mlle. Leontine Pauline 'Ninette' Aubart (not Aubert) has a very good biography on this website. Her date of birth and date of death have now been updated.
I have never seen a picture of her but, like yourself, would like to. I don't know where one could be seen but I suspect that Gunter Babler's book "Reise auf der Titanic" may have one, but maybe not.
I have never seen a picture of her but, like yourself, would like to. I don't know where one could be seen but I suspect that Gunter Babler's book "Reise auf der Titanic" may have one, but maybe not.
Indeed, a small picture of Ninette Aubart is in Gí¼nter Bäblers book "Reise auf der Titanic" (picture No. 22), Chronos Verlag Zí¼rich, ISBN 3-905312-62-x. Also a picture of her maid, Emma Sägesser (No. 23), and of some other Swiss people on the Titanic. Gí¼nter is president of the Titanic Verein Schweiz - http://join.at/titanicverein - possibly you could contact Gí¼nter and ask him for a scan. Good luck!
Ursula
Ursula
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Hey all,
Does anyone have any info on Mme. Aubart's supposed singing career and/or whatever became of her?
I ran across a photo of her during my research on "Lucile" some time back. It was a lovely tinted picture, full page, in "Le Theatre" magazine. At the time I was only mildly curious to see it as my focus was elsewhere so I did not write down the citation - date, page, etc - of this magazine. I hope I run across it in future digs. It was a great picture.
At any rate, what is known of Aubart apart from what we all know - that she was Ben Guggenheim's lady friend? According to one of Peggy Guggenheim's biographers, Mrs. Guggenheim was aware of the relationship but chose not to speak with Aubart after the disaster. In one account, I've read that family members/ friends, on noticing Aubart step from the Carpathia gangway, shielded Mrs. Guggenheim and redirected her attention. It was also stated that emissaries were dispathched privately later to Aubart's hotel to find out what had happened during Ben's final days.
Does anyone know anything else? What happened to this mysterious lady? Etc.
Randy
Does anyone have any info on Mme. Aubart's supposed singing career and/or whatever became of her?
I ran across a photo of her during my research on "Lucile" some time back. It was a lovely tinted picture, full page, in "Le Theatre" magazine. At the time I was only mildly curious to see it as my focus was elsewhere so I did not write down the citation - date, page, etc - of this magazine. I hope I run across it in future digs. It was a great picture.
At any rate, what is known of Aubart apart from what we all know - that she was Ben Guggenheim's lady friend? According to one of Peggy Guggenheim's biographers, Mrs. Guggenheim was aware of the relationship but chose not to speak with Aubart after the disaster. In one account, I've read that family members/ friends, on noticing Aubart step from the Carpathia gangway, shielded Mrs. Guggenheim and redirected her attention. It was also stated that emissaries were dispathched privately later to Aubart's hotel to find out what had happened during Ben's final days.
Does anyone know anything else? What happened to this mysterious lady? Etc.
Randy
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Just a clarification: I've naturally read what Phil Hind has posted in Aubart's bio. I'm just wondering if anyone has knowledge of her professional life before and after the Titanic. Thanks
Geoff Whitfield
Member
Hello Randy,
Can't help a great deal I'm afraid. Some years ago I received a letter from Mme Aubart's God-daughter in France who supplied me with a rather sketchy profile of her "Tante Ninette". She was able to supply both her date of birth and death but knew very little of her private life or career. Indeed, she did not know that Mme Aubart had been a singer and found it very difficult to equate what we know about her with the sweet, gentle old lady she knew!
It appears that Ninette's memory was somewhat selective as she had told the family that she was travelling with Ben Guggenheim with whom she was to be married shortly after her arrival in New York!I find it hard to believe that she did not know of Florette Guggenheim's existence. Before her return to France she notified the authorities that she intended claiming for loss of her property and injuries to her person and that all dealings would be with her lawyers in France. She claimed $12,220 for her belongings and $25,000 for injuries. It seems that she was injured during her experiences in the lifeboat as her God-daughter said that she suffered dreadfully from rheumatism in her feet as a result of being immersed in water.
She appears to have returned to France and married with quite alarming haste! I understand that this man was a member of the French Cabinet but nobody so far knows if they divorced or she was widowed. She remarried in 1927 to a Mnsr. De Lannoy but this marriage ended in divorce in 1934.
Next, she married a man called Caille - although there is some confusion here as to it being he that she married on her return to France in 1912.
She had at least one child, I have (or had) a photocopy of a newspaper which showed her at her son's wedding. From this photograph it appears that she was only about five foot tall.I hope this helps in some small way and will, of course, let you know if anything else turns up.
Regards
Geoff
Can't help a great deal I'm afraid. Some years ago I received a letter from Mme Aubart's God-daughter in France who supplied me with a rather sketchy profile of her "Tante Ninette". She was able to supply both her date of birth and death but knew very little of her private life or career. Indeed, she did not know that Mme Aubart had been a singer and found it very difficult to equate what we know about her with the sweet, gentle old lady she knew!
It appears that Ninette's memory was somewhat selective as she had told the family that she was travelling with Ben Guggenheim with whom she was to be married shortly after her arrival in New York!I find it hard to believe that she did not know of Florette Guggenheim's existence. Before her return to France she notified the authorities that she intended claiming for loss of her property and injuries to her person and that all dealings would be with her lawyers in France. She claimed $12,220 for her belongings and $25,000 for injuries. It seems that she was injured during her experiences in the lifeboat as her God-daughter said that she suffered dreadfully from rheumatism in her feet as a result of being immersed in water.
She appears to have returned to France and married with quite alarming haste! I understand that this man was a member of the French Cabinet but nobody so far knows if they divorced or she was widowed. She remarried in 1927 to a Mnsr. De Lannoy but this marriage ended in divorce in 1934.
Next, she married a man called Caille - although there is some confusion here as to it being he that she married on her return to France in 1912.
She had at least one child, I have (or had) a photocopy of a newspaper which showed her at her son's wedding. From this photograph it appears that she was only about five foot tall.I hope this helps in some small way and will, of course, let you know if anything else turns up.
Regards
Geoff
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Geoff,
This is all very interesting! Thank you so much for responding. For my part I will certainly keep you abreast of the elusive "Le Theatre" photo when (if) it should turn up!
And do let me know if there is anything at all I can do to assist in the way of info or pictures of the Duff Gordons for any upcoming features.
Yours as ever,
Randy
This is all very interesting! Thank you so much for responding. For my part I will certainly keep you abreast of the elusive "Le Theatre" photo when (if) it should turn up!
And do let me know if there is anything at all I can do to assist in the way of info or pictures of the Duff Gordons for any upcoming features.
Yours as ever,
Randy
Andrew Maheux
Member
Ursula,
Where do I find the book "Reise auf der Titanic"
- Andrew
Where do I find the book "Reise auf der Titanic"
- Andrew
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
All,
Taking a little break from Edith Russell, I have just read over (thanks to Daniel) Ninette Aubart's White Star Line claim. It isn't nearly so detailed as Edith Rosenbaum's inventory and nowhere near as long as Charlotte Cardeza's famous list, but it's very interesting, just the same.
I thought I'd share this list for those here who, like me, are curious about this mysterious lady.
Mme. (or more likely Mdlle.) Aubart drafted a letter describing her lost possessions and posted it to White Star even before returning to France. Once home she started legal proceedings, eventually joining many other Titanic survivors (Rene Harris, Margaret Brown, etc) in the class-action Limited Liability suit in NY District Court.
Her claim (for $12,200 in lost valuables and $25,000 for personal-injury damages) was sworn to before the US Consulate General in Paris, Hanson C. Coxe, and was stamped, signed, and sealed by him on 20 February 1913. One year to the date of Ninette's boarding Titanic at Cherbourg, 10 April 1913, her claim was authorized and submitted to the court by attorney A. Gordon Murray, acting as her proctor.
Her claim, totaling $37,220 (or FR 61,100), charged, among other things, that the wreck of the Titanic occured "by reason of negligence," moreover that the lifeboat in which she escaped "was not properly officered, manned, or equipped."
Ninette Aubart contended that she "was exposed to the elements improperly and scantily clad and was thereby caused serious and permanent personal injuries...was made sick, sore, lame, and disabled by reason of such exposure." She further asserted that she "suffered and still suffers great mental pain and anguish and distress" and "was impaired in her senses and faculties." Lastly, she attested that "her health and constitution are shattered" and that "her nervous system is permanently affected..."
Below is a full transcript of Leontine ("Ninette") Aubart's inventory of possessions she lost aboard Titanic:
_________________________________________________
New York, May 1st, 1912.
Dear sir,
Before returning tomorrow to Paris, I beg to send you a list of the effects and jewels that I have lost on the Titanic.
TRUNKS:
1 trunk "Innovation" for hats.
1 " " for dresses.
1 " " for lingerie (underwear).
1 " "Vuitton"
1 toilette-bag with silver fittings.
FR 3,500.
24 dresses and wraps - FR 25,000
7 hats and 2 with aigrettes - FR 2,400
SHOES:
6 pairs black.
6 " evening.
6 " satin with jewelled buckles.
6 " (without description).
FR 1,800.
LINGERIE (Underwear):
24 chemises (real lace).
6 chemisettes (undervests).
12 sets of knickers.
24 night costumes of silk lace,corsets, corset-covers, handkerchiefs, and neck-wear.
FR 6,000.
Gloves and theatre glasses - FR 400.
JEWELRY:
1 gold bag with sapphires - FR 4,000.
1 purse, gold with emeralds - FR 2,000.
1 money bag and powder purse, gold with sapphires - FR 4,000.
1 bracelet - FR 3,000.
1 tiara of brilliants - FR 9,000.
TOTAL - FR 61,100.
For the greater part of these articles I think I am able to produce the invoices. I will inform you on my arrival in Paris where I shall put the matter in the hands of my lawyer.
LEONTINE AUBART.
17, Rue Le Seur, Paris, France.
Passenger on Titanic, Deck B-35.
_________________________________________________
It's strange to me that she lists so few jewelry items. One wonders if she escaped with some in a bag or purse or else that she felt guilty asking reimbursement for more pieces, as many of these would surely have been purchased for her by Benjamin Guggenheim.
Randy
Taking a little break from Edith Russell, I have just read over (thanks to Daniel) Ninette Aubart's White Star Line claim. It isn't nearly so detailed as Edith Rosenbaum's inventory and nowhere near as long as Charlotte Cardeza's famous list, but it's very interesting, just the same.
I thought I'd share this list for those here who, like me, are curious about this mysterious lady.
Mme. (or more likely Mdlle.) Aubart drafted a letter describing her lost possessions and posted it to White Star even before returning to France. Once home she started legal proceedings, eventually joining many other Titanic survivors (Rene Harris, Margaret Brown, etc) in the class-action Limited Liability suit in NY District Court.
Her claim (for $12,200 in lost valuables and $25,000 for personal-injury damages) was sworn to before the US Consulate General in Paris, Hanson C. Coxe, and was stamped, signed, and sealed by him on 20 February 1913. One year to the date of Ninette's boarding Titanic at Cherbourg, 10 April 1913, her claim was authorized and submitted to the court by attorney A. Gordon Murray, acting as her proctor.
Her claim, totaling $37,220 (or FR 61,100), charged, among other things, that the wreck of the Titanic occured "by reason of negligence," moreover that the lifeboat in which she escaped "was not properly officered, manned, or equipped."
Ninette Aubart contended that she "was exposed to the elements improperly and scantily clad and was thereby caused serious and permanent personal injuries...was made sick, sore, lame, and disabled by reason of such exposure." She further asserted that she "suffered and still suffers great mental pain and anguish and distress" and "was impaired in her senses and faculties." Lastly, she attested that "her health and constitution are shattered" and that "her nervous system is permanently affected..."
Below is a full transcript of Leontine ("Ninette") Aubart's inventory of possessions she lost aboard Titanic:
_________________________________________________
New York, May 1st, 1912.
Dear sir,
Before returning tomorrow to Paris, I beg to send you a list of the effects and jewels that I have lost on the Titanic.
TRUNKS:
1 trunk "Innovation" for hats.
1 " " for dresses.
1 " " for lingerie (underwear).
1 " "Vuitton"
1 toilette-bag with silver fittings.
FR 3,500.
24 dresses and wraps - FR 25,000
7 hats and 2 with aigrettes - FR 2,400
SHOES:
6 pairs black.
6 " evening.
6 " satin with jewelled buckles.
6 " (without description).
FR 1,800.
LINGERIE (Underwear):
24 chemises (real lace).
6 chemisettes (undervests).
12 sets of knickers.
24 night costumes of silk lace,corsets, corset-covers, handkerchiefs, and neck-wear.
FR 6,000.
Gloves and theatre glasses - FR 400.
JEWELRY:
1 gold bag with sapphires - FR 4,000.
1 purse, gold with emeralds - FR 2,000.
1 money bag and powder purse, gold with sapphires - FR 4,000.
1 bracelet - FR 3,000.
1 tiara of brilliants - FR 9,000.
TOTAL - FR 61,100.
For the greater part of these articles I think I am able to produce the invoices. I will inform you on my arrival in Paris where I shall put the matter in the hands of my lawyer.
LEONTINE AUBART.
17, Rue Le Seur, Paris, France.
Passenger on Titanic, Deck B-35.
_________________________________________________
It's strange to me that she lists so few jewelry items. One wonders if she escaped with some in a bag or purse or else that she felt guilty asking reimbursement for more pieces, as many of these would surely have been purchased for her by Benjamin Guggenheim.
Randy
Geoff Whitfield
Member
Hi Randy, Hope all is well with you. I probably mentioned that I knew Ninette's God-Daughter who told me that she suffered from severe rheumatism as a result of her legs being immersed in the freezing water in their lifeboat. This could only have happened later in life (and in fact may not really have anything to do with her experiences).
She had a good life, marrying several times and gaining a title in the process! I found it rather sad that none of her family believed her story about being on the Titanic with her wealthy lover, and put it down to the fantasies of a lonely old woman. It was only upon her death that her private papers were discovered which included all of the newspaper coverage of the story.
"Tante Ninette" was described as a kindly old lady with a love of children, she did have at least one child who married around 1950. The family had not seen Ninette's darker side however, her cravings for wealth and a place in society.
She had a good life, marrying several times and gaining a title in the process! I found it rather sad that none of her family believed her story about being on the Titanic with her wealthy lover, and put it down to the fantasies of a lonely old woman. It was only upon her death that her private papers were discovered which included all of the newspaper coverage of the story.
"Tante Ninette" was described as a kindly old lady with a love of children, she did have at least one child who married around 1950. The family had not seen Ninette's darker side however, her cravings for wealth and a place in society.
Colleen Collier
Member
Geoff stated..>>>The family had not seen Ninette's darker side however, her cravings for wealth and a place in society.<<<
At the expense of being a homewrecking harlot. Can somebody say Mata Hari???
I know.... sharp words... Especially for someone who hasn't done any research on her. I'm trying out my new found word "Collywobbles". Think I'll go back to "grog" instead.... Hmmm... while I'm at it, I'll raise a toast and say Guggenheims' favorite one. "To our wives and mistresses, may they never meet"
(Thank you Cap'n Dave for telling me that saying).
Colleen
At the expense of being a homewrecking harlot. Can somebody say Mata Hari???
I know.... sharp words... Especially for someone who hasn't done any research on her. I'm trying out my new found word "Collywobbles". Think I'll go back to "grog" instead.... Hmmm... while I'm at it, I'll raise a toast and say Guggenheims' favorite one. "To our wives and mistresses, may they never meet"
(Thank you Cap'n Dave for telling me that saying).
Colleen
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Geoff,
Yes, I knew you were in touch with her family. In fact I chose to post on this archived thread instead of creating a new one because I'm hoping people will scroll up to read the great details you shared some time back.
I assume "Aunt" Ninette's relatives may be embarrassed about her presence on Titanic in the capacity of mistress to a married man (especially one as well known as Guggenheim) but I wish they wouldn't be and would perhaps want to attend some of the BTS or French society conventions - or at least share their memories of their most fascinating relative for an article by a certain sympathetic and respectful author...
My personal feelings are not at all negative or censorious about her mode of life. We have to remember that those were very different times and that the morals of the Edwardian upper class, in particular, are worlds apart from the way things are now.
It was a time of extraordinary amorality - and even more extraordinary discretion. "Do what you like so long as you don't frighten the horses" Mrs. Patrick Campbell is reputed to have said. I think I've quoted that famous barb before here but it bears repeating.
Wealthy wives were seldom in ignorance of their husband's dalliances (or vice-versa!) but they did not have their faces rubbed in the fact as is done today in such cases. Men were respectful of their wives and were careful not to neglect their homelife and children as happens now. Wives did not have to read of their husband's exploits in a tabloid so they were more adept at putting it out of their minds and attending to other things more important. I think, from what I've read, that they managed to cope with their husband's infidelities much better than we might imagine.
So in a sense I do not feel sorry for Mrs. Guggenheim - only that she lost her husband in a terrible tragedy. She had much to keep herself occupied with and, afterall, she was what Ninette or any other lover would never be - Ben's wife. The "Mrs" always had this assurance in those days, but not so today! A man will leave his wife now for a particularly fine sports car. Then even bad marriages USUALLY stuck because of the social anathema divorce used to be. Today divorce costs next to nothing, takes but a few minutes in court, and shocks no one anymore (except for very good Catholics).
I think Ninette was probably a basically good girl who happened into a way of living she herself might not have been overly proud of; like many others, she was lured by the glamour and excitement of such a lifestyle, however decadent or downright immoral it may have been. And I like Colleen's equating Ninette Aubart to Mata Mari, another lovely caught up in the events of history, though with a distinct disadvantage!
I guess it's perverse of me to be intrigued by "Mme" Aubart but I can't help it. She's just someone I would like to know more about.
Thanks to you I do, and thanks to our pals Phil and Brian, we'll probably learn much more very soon.
All my best,
Randy
Yes, I knew you were in touch with her family. In fact I chose to post on this archived thread instead of creating a new one because I'm hoping people will scroll up to read the great details you shared some time back.
I assume "Aunt" Ninette's relatives may be embarrassed about her presence on Titanic in the capacity of mistress to a married man (especially one as well known as Guggenheim) but I wish they wouldn't be and would perhaps want to attend some of the BTS or French society conventions - or at least share their memories of their most fascinating relative for an article by a certain sympathetic and respectful author...
My personal feelings are not at all negative or censorious about her mode of life. We have to remember that those were very different times and that the morals of the Edwardian upper class, in particular, are worlds apart from the way things are now.
It was a time of extraordinary amorality - and even more extraordinary discretion. "Do what you like so long as you don't frighten the horses" Mrs. Patrick Campbell is reputed to have said. I think I've quoted that famous barb before here but it bears repeating.
Wealthy wives were seldom in ignorance of their husband's dalliances (or vice-versa!) but they did not have their faces rubbed in the fact as is done today in such cases. Men were respectful of their wives and were careful not to neglect their homelife and children as happens now. Wives did not have to read of their husband's exploits in a tabloid so they were more adept at putting it out of their minds and attending to other things more important. I think, from what I've read, that they managed to cope with their husband's infidelities much better than we might imagine.
So in a sense I do not feel sorry for Mrs. Guggenheim - only that she lost her husband in a terrible tragedy. She had much to keep herself occupied with and, afterall, she was what Ninette or any other lover would never be - Ben's wife. The "Mrs" always had this assurance in those days, but not so today! A man will leave his wife now for a particularly fine sports car. Then even bad marriages USUALLY stuck because of the social anathema divorce used to be. Today divorce costs next to nothing, takes but a few minutes in court, and shocks no one anymore (except for very good Catholics).
I think Ninette was probably a basically good girl who happened into a way of living she herself might not have been overly proud of; like many others, she was lured by the glamour and excitement of such a lifestyle, however decadent or downright immoral it may have been. And I like Colleen's equating Ninette Aubart to Mata Mari, another lovely caught up in the events of history, though with a distinct disadvantage!
I guess it's perverse of me to be intrigued by "Mme" Aubart but I can't help it. She's just someone I would like to know more about.
Thanks to you I do, and thanks to our pals Phil and Brian, we'll probably learn much more very soon.
All my best,
Randy
George Behe
Member
Hi, Randy!
>A man will leave his wife now for a particularly fine sports car.
That of course depends on what kind of sports car you're talking about.
(Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!)
>A man will leave his wife now for a particularly fine sports car.
That of course depends on what kind of sports car you're talking about.
(Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!)
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
George,
I had something else in mind besides a car but it was in very bad taste. I'll share my first thought by email.
Randy
PS) On second thought I won't. It's really VERY bad.
I had something else in mind besides a car but it was in very bad taste. I'll share my first thought by email.
Randy
PS) On second thought I won't. It's really VERY bad.
George Behe
Member