Let titanic rest in peace


Status
Not open for further replies.
K

Ken hogan

Guest
The Titanic. When you think about it, is nothing more than a mass of steel, Iron and wood. it was not a truly remarkable ship, as many ships have come and gone, and have been faster and more luxurious. And it went to the bottom of a vast chasm after a short time in the sun.

Sounds strangley familiar to a coffin dosent it?

The simple fact is, yes Titanic was a grand lady, yes she was a wonderful ship, and now is little more than a rotting hulk at the bottom of the ocean.

But that is, and never will be the point.

What makes the Titanic special is the people who told her story, who once strolled along her decks, stoked her engines, and guided her across the atlantic. Some came in search of a better life, some it was a vaction, and yet to others it was a feather in thier cap of high society.

And the one night when all of that ceased to matter, and the daily lives they took for granted became a struggle for life and death that few had control over.

For two and a half hours, all of thier hopes and dreams were unto dust, and the primal hunger for survial took over thier minds, their bodies, thier very being.

But it is not simply a mindless tale of human beings put into a hapless situation, clawing to survive.

It is a tale of bravery, villiany, hope , sadness, loss, and the will to survive and triumph over all.

Think of the men who died in the engine spaces, keeping lights on in the ship until the very end, the stokers who fed the boilers to make steam for the dynamos.

Think of the penniless immigrants in steerage, locked behind impervious gates of Iron, thier fate decided for them, think of the terror in thier minds when the freezing water began to form around thier ankles, knowing they were going to freeze to death, or drown. Pleasant, yes?

Think of the women who stayed on board with thier husbands, choosing death with the one they loved in the freezing waters, rather than life in a nice, dry warm boat.

Think of joy of the surviors when the Carpathia appeared on the horizon, like a Chariot sent by God to pluck them from the water, and deliver them to safety.

And think of the children, lowered into the boats, thier father standing at the railings, perhaps even with tears in his eyes knowing full well he would never see his children again, yet filling their heads and hears with hope till they were out of sight?

There are more tales of course, but anyone familiar with the Titanic knows them by heart, and need no refresher from me.

The Tales and Peoples of Titanic are forever burned into the physce of us all, we see thier faces, know thier tales, and in most situations, how they died that cold lonely night on the Atlantic ocean.

Should Titanic be left alone?

Of course, she is the site of the sea disaster that changed our world, and how we thought of society forver. She is the site of unimagiable sorrow and loss that never should have happened.

Now, if you can sit there, and read this knowing full well what took place on that ship, and still tell me it should be raped and pilfred for "historical" reasons, that is fine.

Just don't be too upset when we dig up your grandpa and go through his pockets.
 

Jason D. Tiller

Moderator
Member
Aug 20, 2000
8,239
29
398
Niagara Falls, Ontario
I agree with Erik, that was very well said Ken.

Best regards,

Jason
happy.gif
 
Jan 7, 2002
2,446
39
243
It is clear that Titanic holds a much greater interest for marine historians than for marine archaeologists- there are few remaining secrets as to the mechanical makeup of the vessel.

We know who sailed Titanic, who lived, who died, but even still there are still mysteries to be shed. Some dismess such unknowns as trivial at best, but in the eyes of historians, what still remeins to be learned about Titanic is a vast and infinite arena.

She was the most historically relevant peacetime shipwreck of the 20th century, and that alone should warrent her exploration, and the recovery of artifacts for placement within museums.

Of course Titanic is a gravesite, so is every other wreck on the sea floor where there were any fatalities. Becasue of this, do we need to turn tail and leave the wreck in darkness? i think not.

Critics should focus on critisizing Egyptologists- they're exhuming tombs and recovering corpses for public diplay, for petes sake!~

We need to keep Titanic's tale in the public memory, explore her interior before it collposes, and find a proper museum form for the artifacts already up.

Of course now the probelm with recovering artifacts is that there needs to be a way to concerve them, and RMSTI has demonstarted in the past couple years they brought more things up than they had manpower to concerve, and didnt really have a plan as to what to do with them.

As of now im mainly for detailed exploration of the wreck, and hands off tourits visists to the wreck.

Tarn Stephanos
 
K

Ken hogan

Guest
Egyptoligists do dig up corpses for public display, true, and they do excivate tombs and put valuable treasures on display, but however, egyptoligists deal with a period of history where Information on how people lived is scarce, and a source of conjecture.

By digging in egypt, they seek to answer questions where little information is availible, NO eyewitnessess are living, and NO visual record is readily availible. There are many pictures and records of Titanics construction, But have you ever seen a photograph or a manual on the construction of the pyramids?

I think not.

There is also a wealth of information, through family members, and written records on most of the peoples of the Titanic. What is not written, has in some cases been filled in by the information provided by their familes. Has anyone ever surfaced in egypt and said, "yeah, old king Tut was my great to the umpteenth power uncle and he was a lush, and beat his wife when he got loaded?" Or has king Tuts personal diary ever been located?

Once again, I think not.

Keep in mind that egyptoligists are dealing with people and events that took place THOUSANDS of years ago. The Titanic sank Ninety years ago. And there is NO and should be no comparison to the rape of Titanic and the study of egyptoligy.

Also the study of Egyptoligy takes place on LAND not THOUSANDS of feet below the surface of the ocean, where unreal pressures and the limit of technology severly limit the ammout of research that can be done.

Yes, there are still several thousands of questions about the Sad Lady that need to be answered, but again maybe they dont. If we knew all the secrets of the pyramids, they would lose their luster, and interest would fade. And the same applies to Titanic.

Let her keep her secrets. After all that has taken place On her decks when she was afloat, and all that has happened to her seice she sank, dont you think its time she was left alone? There is a wealth of information availible on her, and many riddles can be solved by simple dective work ON LAND.

After all, they stopped diving on the Big Fitz, after they brought up her bell and had a nice cerimony for the families of the men lost, and the big Fitz herself also has secrets.

Its hard to belive that Egyptology is being compared to the Titanic. The two are so far appart on the sepctrum the comparison of the two actually nulls itself out.

But if you still want to explore and pilliage her, thats fine.

Lets dig up Lincoln while were at it. After all we dont actually know what kind of deodorant he used, and finding out is OF UPMOST HISTORICAL IMPORTANCE!!
 

Adam McGuirk

Member
May 19, 2002
567
2
183
"Keep in mind that egyptoligists are dealing with people and events that took place THOUSANDS of years ago. The Titanic sank Ninety years ago. And there is NO and should be no comparison to the rape of Titanic and the study of egyptoligy."

Disagreed.

There is a comparison. They both have to do with human life, and human life is human life whether it took place 3000 years ago or 5 years ago, or whether there are eyewitnesses left are not. So if you don't have a problem with taking items from pyramids, you shouldn't have a problem with taking items away from Titanic.


"Let her keep her secrets. After all that has taken place On her decks when she was afloat, and all that has happened to her seice she sank, dont you think its time she was left alone? There is a wealth of information availible on her, and many riddles can be solved by simple dective work ON LAND."

Salvaging items is not going to deprive Titanic of any of her secrets. It lets future generations grasp history before there eyes and give a sense of what people really used when they were on Titanic. Lets grasp these opprotunities while we can!

I think that the reason people have no problem from taking items from the pyramids is because they don't have the personal attachment to egyptology like they do Titanic. Which I think is wrong, because a gravesite is a gravesite anyway you look at it and what you do with one, you can do to the other.

Adam McGuirk
 
K

Ken hogan

Guest
Hmmmmm perhaps you are correct. Lets just push the fact aside that Titanic was a HORRFIC TRADGEDY, where 1500 people that never should have perished did, and a majority of the egyptians that have died resulted of thier enviroment, murder, wars, etc etc.

Egyptoligts seek to place the puzzle together in egypt, to better understand what happend in that period of time, and that period of human history.

We already know what happened on the Titanic, and persuing her treasures is motivated by greed, no matter what they may tell you. Yes, objects from Titanic are wonderful to dream about and behold, but I dont think theyll ever let you look at them for free.

"I think that the reason people have no problem from taking items from the pyramids is because they don't have the personal attachment to egyptology like they do Titanic. Which I think is wrong, because a gravesite is a gravesite anyway you look at it and what you do with one, you can do to the other. "

First of all the pyramids are and have been empty for thousands of years, all that really remains are the structures themselves, as they were plundered by graverobbers.

And I'm willing to bet you a dollar that the people in Egypt have a great personal attachent to the pyramids, due to the HUGE ammount of revenue they infuse into the egyptian economy. The religons that built those structures are long dead, and they have ceased to be objects of religous furvor and are now a national treasure. they are TOMBS, not sites of human tradegdy where nearly 2000 people lost thier lives.

And if a gravesite is a gravesite, like you say, then by golly, ill go get my scuba gear and get belt buckles off the Arizona and sell em for 10 bucks a pop. Cause after all a gravesite is a gravesite like you said.
 

Adam McGuirk

Member
May 19, 2002
567
2
183
Ken, perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying. I was referring to people on the Titanic board using egyptology as an example, not the egyptains.

Adam
 
Jul 9, 2000
58,655
854
563
Easley South Carolina
The Egyptians had enough of a personal interest in the tombs that anyone caught robbing same sufferedthe penalty of death by impaling. A pretty miserable way to go, but grave robbing continued to be a thriving cottage industry.

Ken, I think Adam cut to the heart of the matter when he mentioned the personal attachement that people feel. There are still three survivors still alive today and the families of those who have passed on take an interest as well as people like us.

As to the wreck being the site of a "HORRFIC TRADGEDY" can you show me one that wasn't? With few exceptions, (Yes, they exist) every shipwreck out there is somebody's grave. It makes no practical difference whether you're talking about the Titanic or a Roman cargo ship that sank in the Mediteranian 2000 years ago. If it was a grave then, it's a grave now.

The difference between Titanic and this unfortunate Roman is that there are people around now who remember and some still feel the pain. While I'm not sure I agree with them on all points, I respect the reasons they feel as they do.

As to the idea that nothing can be learned from the wreck, I would take issue with that and point to the Cunard-White Star Research Forum where you can read Ken Marschall's report on what they saw on the wreck. It deals with the expedition to the wreck site last year conducted by James Cameron. If that report is any indication, the ship is still full of surprises. Some of what we think we know may well be dead wrong, but the only way to find out is to go out there and look.

While I have some very mixed feelings about salvage and artifact recovery, I hope we can learn what secrets are still there while there's still something left to study.
 
K

Ken hogan

Guest
I will agree on a point that you made Michael. There is MUCH left to be learned from the wreck, (although I said previously it could be done from ashore, I now retract that statement, after much consideration)

But Exploring the innards of the Titanic, to me is akin to opening up a Mausaleum and taking photographs of it. Yes there are mysteries that I would like answers to, but that is part of the entire mystique of the ship, the questions unanswered. If we knew all, would we remain interested, or would our interest feign?

And as far as a shipwreck not being a gravesite, I belive that after the first World War, when the germans were ordered to surrender their battleships they scuttled them all with nary a life lost.

Perhaps a few hundred years from now, when the Titanic has collasped, generations of surviors familes have come and gone, and the ship itself is little more than a pile of scrap on the ocean floor, people will feel less intese about the subject, and more will be brought up, and explored. until then, this will be a hotly contested subject.

But heres a pro in the colum for you pro exploration people, they have brought up U-boats from WWII with bodies inside, if my memory serves.
 

Jason D. Tiller

Moderator
Member
Aug 20, 2000
8,239
29
398
Niagara Falls, Ontario
Adam said: "I think that the reason people have no problem from taking items from the pyramids is because they don't have the personal attachment to egyptology like they do Titanic."

Agreed Adam. As Michael said, you hit the nail on the head.

Best regards,

Jason
happy.gif
 
Jul 9, 2000
58,655
854
563
Easley South Carolina
The German warships scuttled at Scapa Flow would definately qualify as being non-graves as would a number of old obsolete warships and merchent vessels scuttled to make artificial reefs and provide something of a playground (Albit a rather dicey one.) for recreational divers.

Unfortunately, such ships are few and far between compared to the thousands that put to sea and never made port. Like the ever fractuous Californian, this is one controversy which is unlikely to ever go away. At least not in our lifetimes.
 
B

Brian Tourville

Guest
Yes, it is chilling to see the various aspects of a Ship Wreck . This is all part of the Human Experience now that Technology allows us to travel miles beneath the waves to View these Lost
Architectural Wonders. It is only the Magnitude of these Gravesites that give us pause .
 

Erik Wood

Member
Aug 24, 2000
3,519
15
313
This will be a debate that will contiue to rage on and has raged on long before my involvement and will contiue long after to stops. I am not sure that there is answer that everbody will be happy with.

I just sit back and keep things to myself and see what happens out of all of it.
 
B

Brian Tourville

Guest
Bravo! Eric - Let us move this Party to The Smoking Lounge and cut Five Stud with our Bretherin.......Steward !
 

Eric Paddon

Member
Jun 4, 2002
569
47
193
Been a while since I chimed in on the debate, but I had to comment on this:

"Yes there are mysteries that I would like answers to, but that is part of the entire mystique of the ship, the questions unanswered. If we knew all, would we remain interested, or would our interest feign?"

It's a fair question since I know from experience that my own interest in Titanic has at times gone through a waning phase when I feel as though there's nothing else for me to read about of particular interest. The three times I visited the artifact exhibitions, always seemed like a culmination of years of waiting to see and finally touch pieces of the ship with my own senses. So yes, it is possible for interest to wane when it seems like at a given moment our information needs have been satisfied, but to me this is something to celebrate, and not to come away thinking "Gee, I wish I hadn't learned that or I might still be interested." The simple joy of accomplishment, which I can also liken to when a research project is finished and I can move onto something else is an eminently more satisfying feeling than keeping the "mystique" alive.

Besides, I've always learned inevitably that knowledge about anything is not finite. We don't need to keep things purposefully hidden just to preserve the "mystique" we can just find new challenges of what there is to learn once we've closed the books on one aspect of the Titanic story.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Similar threads