Lifeboat No. 13

[Seong Ae-Mun]

I was wondering if anyone had any accounts from Miss Julie Smyth, who was probably rescued in Lifeboat # 13. I would appreciate any help in finding any accounts from her. Also, who does everyone feel was the oriental man who was seen in Lifeboat # 13? I have seen Masabuni Hosono placed in this lifeboat, or alternatively, one of the Chinese sailors. Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.
Most sincerely,
Seong

 

[Phillip Gowan]

Seong,
Julia Smyth's story will be a part of the soon to be published biographical book by Senan Molony about the Irish aboard Titanic. But briefly, she had an unhappy first marriage about which she never spoke and later a very long and happy marriage. I've been in close touch with her niece in Jamaica, New York who did not even know that her aunt had previously been married until I told her. Julia had no children but adored her nieces and I have a great photo of a smiling Julia with her niece Diana taken in Central Park. She lived out her entire life in New York City and is buried there.

Regards,
Phillip Gowan

 

[Michael Findlay]

Dear Seong,

Masabumi Hosono was not rescued in boat #13. According to Hosono's own recently discovered account of the sinking, he was saved in boat #10. Steward F. Dent Ray remembered a "Japanese" man in boat #13. However, I believe Ray may have been mistaken in his identification. Although it is possible that one of the Chinese sailors made it into boat #13, it appears that they were all together at boat C. Since there were a number of men who entered boat #13, I'm sure that all of the Chinese sailors had a better opportunity to get into this boat if they were there.

Regarding Julia Smyth White, she lived in New York City until her death in 1977. Unfortunately, my fellow researchers and I recently discovered that her grave is unmarked at the St. Raymond's Cemetery in the Bronx. My research has led me to believe that Julia Smyth was in boat #13, along with several friends.

I hope this information will be of some help.

Sincerely,

Michael Findlay

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

Dear everybody, re a Chinese in boat 13; Agnes Sandström of boat 13 also remembered a Japanese (that's what she said) in her boat, as did steward Ray, so there doesn't seem to be much doubt about that fact. Four other Chinese sailors made it into boat C, and one was picked up from the sea, making six survivors out of eight. As for Mr Hosono; his recollections only mention incidents in or near boat No 10, where the crew remembered a Japanese or Chinese man in the boat.

Peter Engberg-Klarström

 

[Seong Ae-Mun]

Dear Mark and Peter,
Thank you kindly for your thoughts regarding the Oriental passenger seen in Lifeboat #13. I was also wondering if either of you had seen anything to suggest that there might have been an Oriental passenger in Lifeboat #15. One Irish lady in this boat said that there was a "Japanese man" who had escaped by hiding himself in the boat. If Mr. Hosono was in Lifeboat #10, and four of the six Chinese sailors were in Collapsible C, one in Lifeboat #13, and one picked up by Lifeboat #14, then who might this have been? I was wondering if there is any accounts that anyone is aware of that refer to an Oriental passenger in Lifeboat #15. I find it difficult to accept the Irish lady's word without additional evidence, unless there is evidence that there were more than seven Oriental passengers on the ship. She might well have been mistaken, or perhaps this lady was in Lifeboat #13 and not #15? Her name was Berta Mulvehill. Thank you again much for your thoughts and opinions.
Sincerely,
Seong

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

Dear Seong, I don't think there was any Chinese person in boat No 15. Bertha Mulvihill is one of those Irish ladies who is a bit difficult to place in a particular lifeboat as far as I know. If memory serves me correctly, she is one of the ladies Eugene Daly claimed to have helped before the ship sank. He would also claim that there was shooting near the lifeboat into which he helped the two ladies, so this would indicate No 14, I believe. There was no sort of shooting near the starboard aft boats at any rate, and no man had to hide in any way in boats 13 or 15, since they both were filled mainly with men (2/3 and 3/4 respectively). Do you think she might be referring to a Syrian man? I am not sure whether 'Oriental' is correct in that case, but still...one never knows. Be that as it may, there were indeed six surviving Chinese men and one Japanese, but there were five Syrian men saved as well. I believe most of them claimed they had to jump for it, but again, so did most third class men. I have a strong feeling they ended up in No 15, even though some people have placed the Syrian men in boat D, based on Chief Steward Hardy's account, but he does not say there were Syrian men in the boat, and other passengers deny this.

Peter

Peter

 

[Senan Molony]

Hmmm... Julia Smyth was indeed in #13 with compatriot Kate Connolly. Somes Irish female accounts seem to place Daniel Buckley in this boat too, and Buckley says shots were fired over the heads of men who entered the boat in which he eventually stayed in a bid to encourage them to climb out.. I wouldn't be so sure that there was no shooting on the starboard side until Collapsible C.
Smyth, Buckley, and other boat 13 accounts will be included in "The Irish Aboard Titanic", published by Wolfhound Press, next month May 2000.

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

Dear Senan, re shootings on the ship; no witnesses from the starboard side ever mention shootings taking place before boat C left. I agree that Buckley's account is a bit enigmatic; he describes being threatened etc, which does not go well with the starboard side at all, where men were (more or less) freely allowed to enter the boats. I have seen suggestions that men tried to trick themselves into the starboard boats, but to the best of my knowledge this was not necessary - when there were no more women around, men could enter without further ado, provided there was space for them. Julia Smyth mentions a young lad from Ireland whom she knew, who was in her lifeboat if memory serves me correctly. I can't remember whether she actually gives the name, though.

Peter

 

[Pat Cook]

For what it's worth I really don't believe that Daniel Buckley was in lifeboat #13. What I base this on is the following:

Buckley stated at the U S Hearings that: "I went into the boat. Then two officers came along and said all the men should come out..."

This event isn't mentioned in any other accounts I have read, those being of Beauchamp, Barrett, F. D. Ray, Lawrence Beesley and Washington Dodge. (Working on Hilda Slayter right now as well.)

Buckley stated at the U S Hearings that "...the officers drew their revolvers and fired shots over our heads..." Again, no mention in any of the other occupants' accounts listed above.

Then Buckley stated that after he managed to stay in the boat, it was lowered and he makes no mention of the horror of BOTH being lowered into the path of the water exhaust threatening to swamp the small boat OR the impending lifeboat #15, which was lowered almost on top of #13.

And, of course, Buckley's account that he was covered with a shawl, disguised as a woman. Again, none of the other accounts mentions this NOR (as one of you pointed out earlier, I believe) was there any reason to disguise Buckley since men were allowed into the boats on the starboard side.

Again, just my opinion on this point - take it for what it's worth.

Best regards,
Cook

 

[David Gleicher]

Pat,

I agree with you. I think the evidence points in fact to Lifeboat #14, which left around the same time as #13, and in which the various incidents described by Buckley occurred.

DG

 

[Dave Gittins]

How’s this for a theory on Dan Buckley?

His story does not fit boat 13. This boat saw no guns fired but it did have the drama with boat 15, which Buckley never mentions. He obviously was not in boat 4 with Madeleine Astor as he thought, because that was lowered from A deck and again there was no gunfire.

I favour boat 14. He says he went in the 6th boat lowered and if he means the 6th on the port side this could have been boat 14. The British enquiry put it 5th on that side but Lowe said 12, 14 and 16 all went at much the same time. Rough enough, I say. As it was lowered, Lowe fired shots, which Buckley, crouching in the boat, could easily have thought went over his head. There are reports that some kind of verbal warning was also given.

Lowe later found an “Italian” with a shawl over his head and pitched him into another boat when he was preparing to go to the rescue of those in the sea. Given that Lowe had trouble identifying nationalities and used “Italian” as a synonym for “coward”, I suggest that the “Italian” was in fact Buckley. If Buckley said nothing to Lowe at the time, he could well have been taken for a non-English speaker.

Now I’ll just sit back and prepare to duck!

 

[Pat Cook]

Hi, Dave,

Makes sense to me! I have since heard from Peter Engberg-Klarstrom and Tad Fitch and both agree that Buckley was probably in either #14 or C. (They may post their own conclusions here later - I hope I'm quoting them correctly.) Peter tends, however, to lean toward C, because of the shooting and pulling out of men passengers.
However, to be honest with you, for years I always thought the man pulled up by Lowe was Buckley. On the other hand, he (Buckley) makes no mention of the event at the hearings, this after he boldly 'confessed' to passing for a woman and crying. I tend to believe Buckley was in C myself. JMHO, here - take it for what it's worth.

Best regards,
Cook

 

[Tad G. Fitch]

Hello Dave,
How are you? I tend to agree with Pat and Peter here regarding Buckley, and also feel that he probably boarded Collapsible C. The reasons I believe this, are because he mentions the gunfire and men being pulled out of the boat, and also that the ship sank about fifteen minutes after his boat had been lowered away. Collapsible C was lowered around this same ammount of time before the ship sank. As for the "Italian" who "dressed himself like a woman" and was discovered by Fifth Officer Lowe, I feel that this may have been Edward Ryan. He was in Lifeboat # 14, and admitted in a private letter that he covered his head with a shawl to escape.
Best regards,
Tad Fitch

 

[Dave Gittins]

Shooting at collapsible C? Primary source please! That was the boat Bruce Ismay went in and I know of no account of shooting or of men being pulled out.

 

[David Gleicher]

There are accounts by Thayer, Woolner, Daly and Rheims of shots around the launching (using the term loosely) of the last two collapsibles (C and A) on the sarboard side--this is where the celebrated suicide/murder claim comes from. Others, notably Rowe, Pearcey and Ismay himself denied that any disturbances occurred in the launching of collapsible C. By contrast, as Lord writes, there is only one thoroughly documented shooting on the Titanic--that was by Lowe during the loading of lifeboat 14.

In any case, a careful reading of Buckley's testimony, it seems to me, makes it unlikely that collapsible C was the lifeboat Buckley entered. Buckley testified that he helped in the preparing and launching of five lifeboats and to have jumped into the sixth. One can infer these were lifeboats at the rear of the ship, which were launched within minutes of each other. In what sense collapsible C would have been the 'sixth boat' is unclear.

Moreover, Buckley does not refer at all to heading to the front of the ship to get to the sixth lifeboat. And if we are to believe, as Quinn contends, that collapsible C was launched at 2AM or so, would Buckley have completely left out the fact that he entered one of the last boats on the ship, the one which the famous Ismay had also gotten into? Seems unlikely, doesn't it?

DG