Lightoller and 49 West


Mar 22, 2003
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I don't think Lightoller really thought it through when he gave that bit of evidence. Lightoller came on duty at 6pm, about 10 minutes after the ship turned the corner. Heading westward after that, the ship would average close to 30' of longitude per hour traveling at 22 knots. (very roughly 22 x 4/3 at that latitude). To reach 49°W the ship had to travel 2°W from the corner longitude at 47°W. That means about 4 hours travel time from the corner, not 3 1/2, taking him to the end of his watch at 10pm.
 

Jim Currie

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What makes you think that Sam?

Lightoller did not have very much to think about. If you re-read his evidence, you find that he never mentions a speed greater than 21.5 knots. I'm pretty sure he based his speed on the engine RPM and the prevailing conditions. At that speed, in that Latitude and on the prescribed course, Titanic would have increased her westerly longitude by 28.8 minutes every hour.

Incidentally, Boxhall must have used the same criteria. If he thought Titanic was making 22 knots because the conditions prevailing after 8pm reduced propeller slip then he must have thought she was making less than 22 knots before 8 pm. You will remember that they had not completed their slip tables so were running 'blind' in a new ship which had enhancements designed to improve her performance over that of her sister "Olympic".

Moody's 11 pm arrival at 49 West is an even great mystery.


Jim C.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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>>At that speed, in that Latitude and on the prescribed course, Titanic would have increased her westerly longitude by 28.8 minutes every hour.<<

That's essentially what I said. If the ship was anywhere near the corner longitude at 6pm it would be near 49W about 4 hours later, not 3 1/2 hours later.

Moody's 11pm time was not for 49W. Lightoller thought it was based on a different ice report than the one that he based his 9:30pm time on. If Moody's was based on the Baltic message that ice was reported in Lon 49° 52'W in Lat 41° 51'N, just a little to north of Titanic's path, and if he thought 49° 30'W is what they needed to be concerned about, then his 11pm time would fit. I think he was just being conservative.
 

Alex F

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In his evidence 2nd Officer Lightoller said he mentally calculated that Titanic would be at 49 West, the longitude of the ice given in the Caronia message, at 9-30pm. How did he come up with that time? Anyone with ideas?

Jim C.

There was a message from the vessel with yellow funnel (SS Noordam) with ice warning to Smith on 14 April and his reply to SS Noordam at 08:50pm.

Smith had time to go and stay on bridge half an hour till 09:30pm to check.

Is it correct?

BR
Alex
 
Mar 22, 2003
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The ice message from Capt. Krol of SS Noordam came in at 9:45am NYT forwarded by Caronia. It was acknowledged by Capt. Smith at 10:29am NYT via Caronia. The reported ice in the message was 42° 24'N to 42° 45'N lat, and 49° 50'W to 50° 20'W lon. This was well north of Titanic's track and would be of no practical concern.
 

Alex F

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The ice message from Capt. Krol of SS Noordam came in at 9:45am NYT forwarded by Caronia. It was acknowledged by Capt. Smith at 10:29am NYT via Caronia. The reported ice in the message was 42° 24'N to 42° 45'N lat, and 49° 50'W to 50° 20'W lon. This was well north of Titanic's track and would be of no practical concern.

Hmm...

If SS Noordam used GMT time and sent the message at 02:31pm GMT and the Titanic received it at 02:45pm GMT:

02:31pm - 5 hours = 09:31 NYT (the message from SS Noordam received by the Caronia)
02:45pm - 5 hours = 09:45 NYT (the message from SS Noordam received by the Titanic)

Did SS Noordam use GMT time?

BR
Alex

Source 1 Marconigrams sent and received by Captain Smith on the Titanic
Source 2 Copy of Noordam's message
Source 3 Titanic signals archive, page 46
 
Mar 22, 2003
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Hi Alex,

Caronia (MRA) was on GMT. Noordam (MHA) was also. What I gave were the times in NYT that Titanic (MGY) would have received the forwarded Noordam message sent from Caronia, and the transmission time that Titanic would have replied to Noordam via Caronia.

The message from Capt. Krol to Capt. Smith was sent from Noordam at 2:30pm GMT by MHA's wireless operator "M." according to MHA office form. It was recorded as received by MRA's operator "R.L." at 2:31pm GMT (only a 1 minute difference) and then transmitted to MGY at 2:45pm GMT (9:45am NYT).

The acknowledgement message from Capt. Smith was received by MRA's operator "W.G.H." at 3:29pm GMT (10:29am NYT) and then forwarded to MHA at 3:50pm GMT.
By the way, Titanic's apparent time was 2 hours 2 minutes ahead of NYT making Krol's message received at 11:47am apparent time Titanic, and Smith's acknowledgement as being sent out at 12:31pm apparent time Titanic.

Transcripts and photographs of a large number of wireless office forms are in Booth and Coughlan's book 'Titanic - Signals of Disaster', White Star Publications, 1993. Well worth having.
 

Alex F

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Hi Alex,

Caronia (MRA) was on GMT. Noordam (MHA) was also. What I gave were the times in NYT that Titanic (MGY) would have received the forwarded Noordam message sent from Caronia, and the transmission time that Titanic would have replied to Noordam via Caronia.

Hi Sam,

Thanks a lot!

It seems Caronia (MRA) to be a superstation!:eek: She was able communicate at noon with the Titanic for distance over 700 miles (as per Dr.Paul Lee), all the day and night.

Meantime, Paul consider MRA was SS Noordam. Not MHA.
Some witnesses consider too.


10.57. Ditto.
10.59. Working M. R. A.

11954. Who is that?
.

Interesting, that SS Titanic, SS Olympic was unable to communicate with MCE (Cape Race) at day time. Only on sunset or sunrise or at nights. But Caronia was able to communicate with the Titanic, both at day light over distance 700 miles?!!

They sent messages via stations between. If Baltic was asking MRA to help communicate with the Titanic it means MRA is somewhere between the Titanic and SS Baltic.

"Baltic" to "Caronia," "Please tell 'Titanic' we are making towards her."

[Cape Race] Caronia circulates same information broadcast to Baltic and all ships who can hear him RH [Robert Hunston] on duty.

Cape Race was able to receive Caronia?? What was distance between them?

As per the signals archive referred above the Noordam sent a message to the Titanic via Cape Race at 02:30pm GMT. If so, the message from SS Noordam would have to be delivered to the Captain Smith upon receipt from Cape Race in the evening, on 14 April 1912! Phillips would not sleep with the ice message on hands to the Captain.

The Titanic sent a message to the Caronia at 6.52pm.

Marconigram 14th April 1912 6.52pm. Riggs Caronia. Many thanks, love to both. - Smith.

Did they have a contact with the Caronia at 06.52pm too?

BR
Alex
 
Mar 22, 2003
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>>Did they have a contact with the Caronia at 06.52pm too?<<

The office copy read:

Titanic to Caronia via La Provence, 14 Apr 1912, recd by W.E.H. 6.52pm from MLP deld 14 Apr 1912, instructions: via MLP,
prefix S.
Riggs Caronia
Many thanks love to both
Smith

The above was followed by:

Titanic to Caronia via La Provence, 14 Apr 1912, recd by W.E.H. 6.53pm from MLP deld 14 Apr 1912, instructions: via MLP,
prefix S.
Captain Barr, Caronia
Greetings speddens

There are a lot more Titanic related messages compiled in the Booth & Coughlan book. A great reference to have.
 

Alex F

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Titanic to Caronia via La Provence

La Provence (MLP)

Eastbound, New York to Havre.

At 12:15 a.m., La Provence was among the first vessels to pick up Titanic's distress call. Her own wireless operator misread and logged the signal as "41.46N., 50.24W."

The corrected signal (41.44N., 50.14W.) was transmitted at 12:25 a.m. and La Provence assisted in its relay to other vessels.

TIP | Titanic Related Ships | La Provence | French Line

As per La Provence the first distress position was 41.46N., 50.24W and sent at 10:15 NYT. Then the Titanic corrected it to 41.44N., 50.14W at 10:25 NYT. Then corrected again at 10:35?

"Mount Temple" heard "Titanic" sending C.Q.D. Says require assistance. Gives position. Can not hear me.
Advise my Captain his position 41.46 N. 50.24 W.

Lord Mersey's report; The "Salt Lake Tribune" of April 26th says that La Provence heard CQD and "Position 41.46 N, 50.14 W. Require Assistance" at 3am Greenwich Time, or 10pm New York Time.

La Provence called immediately to inform her that her call had been received but the limited power on La Provence's equipment prevented them from establishing contact as they were 700 miles distant.

At 3.30am [10.30pm New York], the Titanic said "C.Q.D. We require assistance. Have struck an iceberg."

http://www.paullee.com/titanic/pv.html

BR
Alex
 

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