Lightoller and collapsible A

[Arun Vajpey]

OK, thanks. I guess I had missed that part.

In that case, Lightoller must have seen Murdoch and the others struggling with Collapsible A on the starboard side of the officers' quarters. The only thing in his statement that I would question is the comment "from the starboard side, where I had got to...". With the significant port list, one would have thought it was easier to take a dive to the same side, which was flooding by then. It would also have brought Lightoller alongside the overturned Collapsible B, on which he was rescued.

But if his statement about "going over to assist" Murdoch and the others on the starboard side was true, then he could indeed have seen the latter knocked overboard. That is more or less what John Collins claimed he saw (albeit not in his testimony at the US inquiry; he was not asked about that) a few years later when a WW1 POW in Germany.

 

[Aly Jones]

Lightoller's story of what happened has very consistent throughout.
I think some people want to believe Lightoller lied to ease the grief of a grieving widow because it leaves the door open for a Murdoch suicide and Lightoller slams that door shut.

Why is that so many refuse to believe that Murdoch never committed suicide? Why they want to believe, a highly well respected Scottish officer committed suicide on that night? Even when the facts are in the inquiries, plus, the wreck site proves lightoller's story that Murdoch worked up to the very end. The number one davit is hoisted up, in an up right position, waiting for one of those boats that got washed off the decks, Which Murdoch was working on.

Lightoller wrote in a letter, to a good friend of his, that he knows who committed suicide that night. With the evidence we have, and his own testimony, it was differently not Murdoch. Since we have no evidence on Wilde, none what so ever, they can't pin it on him either.

Last year, i did read lightollers letter in regards to who he knew committed suicide that night, but I seem I can not relate it.

 

[Julie McAllister]

OK, thanks. I guess I had missed that part.

In that case, Lightoller must have seen Murdoch and the others struggling with Collapsible A on the starboard side of the officers' quarters. The only thing in his statement that I would question is the comment "from the starboard side, where I had got to...". With the significant port list, one would have thought it was easier to take a dive to the same side, which was flooding by then. It would also have brought Lightoller alongside the overturned Collapsible B, on which he was rescued.

But if his statement about "going over to assist" Murdoch and the others on the starboard side was true, then he could indeed have seen the latter knocked overboard. That is more or less what John Collins claimed he saw (albeit not in his testimony at the US inquiry; he was not asked about that) a few years later when a WW1 POW in Germany.

We're also only guessing what the port to list look like, there might not have been really any list to speak of.

 

[Julie McAllister]

Why is that so many refuse to believe that Murdoch never committed suicide? Why they want to believe, a highly well respected Scottish officer committed suicide on that night? Even when the facts are in the inquiries, plus, the wreck site proves lightoller's story that Murdoch worked up to the very end. The number one davit is hoisted up, in an up right position, waiting for one of those boats that got washed off the decks, Which Murdoch was working on.

Lightoller wrote in a letter, to a good friend of his, that he knows who committed suicide that night. With the evidence we have, and his own testimony, it was differently not Murdoch. Since we have no evidence on Wilde, none what so ever, they can't pin it on him either.

Last year, i did read lightollers letter in regards to who he knew committed suicide that night, but I seem I can not relate it.

It adds more drama if an officer committed suicide. It's human nature.

Can youpost a link to the letter Lightoller wrote?

 

[Arun Vajpey]

It adds more drama if an officer committed suicide. It's human nature.

That is why I feel that there is no reliable evidence that Murdoch committed suicide. I grant that an officer might have done so given the number of witness statements to that effect, but no one identified him as Murdoch. That has been the speculation of many who assume that Murdoch was suffering from some sort of 'guilt' due to the fact that he was the Officer on Watch during the collision, and so automatically conjecture that he must have shot himself. Even Walter Lord considered the possibility in his 1986 book The Night Lives On but by the time he was part of a live TV interview in 1989, he seemed to have changed his mind and felt that the officer involved was Wilde. But he did not elaborate the reasons for that consideration.

All the so-called officer suicide reports are patchy, some of them from survivors in boats that were nowhere near enough at the time. Even George Rheims infamous letter to his wife is not reliable; other than the rather dramatic undertones, he claims to have seen an officer ("That's what I call a man! ) shot himself. Yet, in his deposition at the Limitation of Liability Hearing, he claimed to have heard 2 pistol shots 40 minutes before the Titanic sank (which more or less coincides with Lowe's claim that he fired 2 shots along the side of the ship just as his lifeboat #14 started to be lowered). Rheims further said that he jumped overboard and swam away from the Titanic some 15 minutes before the sinking.

On the other hand, there are at least two definitive survivor accounts specifying that Murdoch was knocked overboard during the chaos associated with Collapsible A floating free. First, there is Lightoller's reported sighting which I was uncertain of for some time till your information above about his statement at the US inquiry; second, my own research in the 1990s indicated that scullion John Collins saw it too. I have even spoken to Collins' daughter Mary McKee about that; admittedly, her information was sketchy but she was quite clear that she'd heard her father speaking to his son (Mary's older brother) about seeing the "Scots Officer" swept overboard as he (Collins) was trying to reach Collapsible A with a child in his arms.

 

[Dan Parkes]

no one identified him as Murdoch.

That is wishful thinking I am afraid. There are dozens of suicide accounts that reference Murdoch specifically by name: Suicide Witnesses| William Murdoch

The key fact that everyone seems to ignore is that we simply do not know how Murdoch died and there is no evidence (yet) that can remove him from the list of possible candidates. Lightoller seeing him at collapsible A and the collapsible A davit still in the retracted position only tells us what we already know - that Murdoch worked extremely hard during the starboard evacuation right up until the last lifeboat. It does not tell us how he died.

Unbiased historians must remove the rose-tinted glasses and see history for what it really is: often an ugly, messy affair full of injustice and tragedy and absent of clearly defined heroes and villains.

 

[Julie McAllister]

That is wishful thinking I am afraid. There are dozens of suicide accounts that reference Murdoch specifically by name: Suicide Witnesses| William Murdoch

The key fact that everyone seems to ignore is that we simply do not know how Murdoch died and there is no evidence (yet) that can remove him from the list of possible candidates. Lightoller seeing him at collapsible A and the collapsible A davit still in the retracted position only tells us what we already know - that Murdoch worked extremely hard during the starboard evacuation right up until the last lifeboat. It does not tell us how he died.

Unbiased historians must remove the rose-tinted glasses and see history for what it really is: often an ugly, messy affair full of injustice and tragedy and absent of clearly defined heroes and villains.

But if Murdoch got thrown in water with everyone else while working at A, how could he have killed himself? He may have felt guilt since the accident was on his watch and could've killed himself, but why so close to death by hypothermia? He could've killed himself in his cabin after the guns were passed out but I doubt a navy/merchant man would've left his fellow crew members to evacuate without him.

Many people heard things on Carpathia and I have no doubt many rumors not only spread like wildfire but took on a life of their own.

Anything is possible but I think it highly improbable. Wilde as well, no parent would purposefully orphan four kids. I just can't see that.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

That is wishful thinking I am afraid. There are dozens of suicide accounts that reference Murdoch specifically by name: Suicide Witnesses| William Murdoch

OK. Since you quoted that witness account, let us look at it a bit more closely. Remember that it was dark and the shooting/suicide incident very likely took place around 02:15 am in the vicinity of Collapsible A.

Also, Murdoch and Wilde were both involved in launching if Collapsible C at around 01:58 am and the former then went to try and free Collapsible A, probably working with Moody.

'Witnesses' from your list who 'saw' and specifically named Murdoch as the officer committing suicide:

Charlotte Collyer - Rescued on #14 launched at 01:25 am
Robert Daniel - Rescued on #3 launched at 12:55 am
Mary Davis - Rescued on #13 launched at 01:40 am
Thomas Dillon - Rescued on Lifeboat #4 launched at 01:50 am
"Max Dittmar-Pitmann" - Non-existent
Frederick Harris - Rescued on Lifeboat #14 launched at 01:25 am
George McGough - Rescued on #9 launched at 01:30 am
"QM J R Moody" - Non-existent
Oscar Olsson - assuming this was actually Oscar Johansson, he was indeed rescued on Collapsible A. But read this excerpt from the article on your link:
“We saw the water come up and up until it almost reached him [Murdoch]. Then we heard a pistol shot. Many people thought he had shot himself.”
Bill Wormstedt writes regarding this that the “fragment above appears to indicate that Olsson did not actually see the suicide” making it similar to Eugene Daly’s account, who said that “there was another shot, and I saw the officer himself lying on the deck. They told me he shot himself, but I did not see him.” Except in the case of Olsson, he does not see evidence of a suicide, but hears a “pistol shot. Many people thought he had shot himself”.
Godfrey Peuchen - Rescued on #6 launched at 01:10 am
"Albert Smith" - Non-existent and in any case the article claims he was rescued on #11 launched at 01:35 am
Thomas Whiteley - There is uncertainty about on which lifeboat Whiteley was rescued, but the relabilty of his witness statements can be easily gauged by two of his other claims - one, that he jumped overboard and swam for 5 hours before being pulled on board a lifeboat, but not before someone hit him on the head with an oar; two, that he swallowed so mach water that doctors later had to remove his stomach and replace it. Sounds like that knock on the head did its job.
Charles Williams - Rescued on #14 launched at 01:25 am
Charles Whilems - Rescued on #9 launched at 01:30 am
"Jack Williams" - Non-existent.

As one can easily see Oscar Olsson/Johansson (who did not actually see the shooting himself but simply heard a shot) apart, the latest lifeboat on which a witness who named Murdoch as having shot himself was #4 and Thomas Dillon. #4 was launched at 01:50 from the port side, almost 25 minutes before the shooting incident. Almost all the crew manning lifeboats were worried about suction effects as the Titanic went down and so rowed away into the darkness as fast as they could. Therefore, it is a fair bet that all of those boats were some distance away from the Titanic when the shooting took place, certainly way too far to be able to discern any faces or details in the chaos that would have been present on the boat deck by then.

Now let us compare the above statements with witness accounts from some who were rescued on Collapsibles A or B, who would have been close enough to have witnessed the incident.

John Collins - was near #A and later rescued on #B. The article says that he described the officer who shot himself as the "Senior Mate"; in fact, he specifically said "The one next to the Captain". Collins know Murdoch by sight as the Scots Officer and reported seeing him knocked overboard. I have spoken to both Alice Braithwaite (the one who first mentioned the report and Collins' daughter Mary McKee about this.
Eugene Daly - Was on board the Titanic till the last moments and was rescued on Collapsible B. He reported an "officer" shooting himself but did not name him.
Peter Daly - Rescued on Collapsible A. Reported an unnamed 'officer' shooting himself.
George Rheims - Rescued on Collapsible A. Reported an unnamed 'officer' shooting himself.
Carl Jansson - Rescued on Collapsible A. Reported the 'chief officer' shooting himself.
Richard Norris Williams - Rescued on Collapsible A. Reported Captain Smith' shooting himself.

Therefore, none of the surviving witnesses who were actually in the vicinity of the shooting named Murdoch. Eugene Daly, Peter Daly and George Rheims saw an unnamed officer while John Collins and Carl Jansson (neither of whom were on the Olympic, where Murdoch had been the Chief Officer) identified the man as the Chief Officer. Richard Williams thought it was Captain Smith.

Therefore the "wishful thinking" does have some substance to it

 

[Arun Vajpey]

But if Murdoch got thrown in water with everyone else while working at A, how could he have killed himself?

He might have had a water pistol .

 

[Dan Parkes]

He might have had a water pistol .

I personally don't think suicide is a laughing matter, having experienced a close friend take his own life.

My point still stands: there are witness accounts (valid or not) that mention "Murdoch" by name.

And we simply don't know how he died, his body was never recovered. So to say he didn't commit suicide is simply speculation without evidence, arguably more so than those who say he did.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I personally don't think suicide is a laughing matter, having experienced a close friend take his own life.

My point still stands: there are witness accounts (valid or not) that mention "Murdoch" by name.

And we simply don't know how he died, his body was never recovered. So to say he didn't commit suicide is simply speculation without evidence, arguably more so than those who say he did.

My apologies if my quip offended you. That was not my intention and I am sorry about your friend.

Regarding witnesses naming Murdoch as the officer committing suicide, I think my analysis of their statements is quite valid. As I have pointed out, all of them had left the Titanic in lifeboats that were launched 25 minutes or more before the incident and there is no way any of them would have been close enough to see clearly what was happening on the crowded decks let alone identify a specific officer.

Equally valid is the fact that none of those who could have been close enough to see what happened identified Murdoch as the officer shooting himself.

I'm afraid you cannot take refuge in the "we simply don't know" phrase as far as this or several other issues regarding the Titanic are concerned. Apart from a few major facts eg geographical position of the wreck or the break-up of the ship, most things are based on conjecture based on collective survivor accounts; there is no other way. We simply won't know for certain and so there have to be some calculated conjecture based on available evidence and survivor statements. In most cases there is some degree of mutual support of among witness statements of various events that took place in those 2 hours and 40 minutes, but in others, there is significant discrepancy. That discrepancy is greatest with the alleged officer shooting incident with even supposedly responsible crew (like QM Hichens who was in charge of Lifeboat #6 and refused to go back anywhere near the sinking ship to pick-up more survivors) claimed to have seen it. Therefore, it will be necessary to dissect those statements a bit to see what could be valid and what not; which is what I did in post #23. Of course, that analysis does not provide us with a definitive answer but it does suggest, rather strongly in my opinion, that Murdoch did not shoot anyone or himself but was knocked overboard in the melee associated with Collapsible A floating free.

This event and the various witness statements associated with it can be looked at from a different angle, perhaps giving a reason why so many people thought that Murdoch had shot himself. While most were not close enough to have seen what happened, almost all of them would have heard the shot(s). Later, on board the Carpathia, word would have quickly spread (likely starting from the likes of Eugene Daly, Peter Daly, George Rheims etc who believed that they saw an unnamed officer shoot himself) about this and rumours would have started flying around. Even those who could have seen nothing like QM Hichens, Charlotte Collyer, Charles Whilems etc but probably heard the shots would then have started to speculate among themselves. In the chaotic states of mind most survivors would have been at the time, they would also have been quite impressionable to their own and others' speculations.

Lightoller, Pitman, Boxhall and Lowe survived and so clearly could not have shot themselves; therefore, it could only have been Wilde, Murdoch or Moody. Since he was the Duty Officer at the time of the collision with the iceberg and apparently failed to successfully get the ship out of the way in time, Murdoch would automatically become most people's (especially of those who could not have seen anything) favourite candidate for being the "guilt-ridden" officer who took desperate action towards the end. The fact that Murdoch had remained calm throughout the sinking, made more rational decisions than any other officer on board including Captain Smith and was responsible for survival of several male passengers by allowing them into lifeboats when there was room is not considered as relevant by the wild speculators. After all, like someone here said, an officer shooting others and then himself adds a bit more "spice" to the whole thing.

 

[Dan Parkes]

After all, like someone here said, an officer shooting others and then himself adds a bit more "spice" to the whole thing.

The problem is that if you approach this with "it cannot have happened because he was a hero" or "because it is too sensational" it prejudices your research. With that very same methodology, we would have to discount the ship splitting in two as that was also assumed to be a sensational exaggeration, which people like Lightoller also discounted believing it was simply another attempt to criticise both the ship and the men in charge of her.

Equally valid is the fact that none of those who could have been close enough to see what happened identified Murdoch as the officer shooting himself.

Actually this is notable - that the closest eyewitnesses did not identify the officer by name. According to most arguments against an officer suicide, it was all the result of rumour and cross-pollination aboard the Carpathia. And yet if it was, they would have simply repeated Murdoch's name as many of the second and third-hand accounts do. But they don't. And as they did not know the officers personally it would be highly unlikely for them to do so. It actually adds credibility to their accounts, especially as many were private correspondence and absent of ulterior motives.

Ultimately. peer researched historians such as the authors behind the excellent "On a Sea of a Glass" book have concluded that most likely an officer suicide/shooting happened. It is simply wishful thinking and prejudiced speculation to claim it was/wasn't a certain officer.

 

[Aly Jones]

It adds more drama if an officer committed suicide. It's human nature.

Can youpost a link to the letter Lightoller wrote?

I've been searching for it for a while again. I'll keep on searching for it. Once found ,I'll post it.

 

[Aly Jones]

[/QUOTE]Regarding witnesses naming Murdoch as the officer committing suicide, I think my analysis of their statements is quite valid. As I have pointed out, all of them had left the Titanic in lifeboats that were launched 25 minutes or more before the incident and there is no way any of them would have been close enough to see clearly what was happening on the crowded decks let alone identify a specific officer.[/QUOTE]

Hi,

Lightoller was there to the end, saw Murdoch got washed off. I'll doubt Murdoch killed himself in the water. Also the claim of suicide happened before the ship sunk.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

The problem is that if you approach this with "it cannot have happened because he was a hero" or "because it is too sensational" it prejudices your research. With that very same methodology, we would have to discount the ship splitting in two as that was also assumed to be a sensational exaggeration, which people like Lightoller also discounted believing it was simply another attempt to criticise both the ship and the men in charge of her.

Ultimately. peer researched historians such as the authors behind the excellent "On a Sea of a Glass" book have concluded that most likely an officer suicide/shooting happened. It is simply wishful thinking and prejudiced speculation to claim it was/wasn't a certain officer.

Let me explain. I have been interested in this Officer shooting/suicide incident for almost 35 years and have tried to research into it as much as my spare time allowed. I did not start out with any preconceived notions or hero worship but tried to look at it in an objective way. I thought that I was sharing a bit of sarcasm with you about others' statements that Murdoch could not have committed suicide because he was a hero etc. Clearly, I did not phrase it properly but I am sure you know what I meant now.

I agree that On A Sea of Glass is an excellent book and also that based on the detailed analysis therein, we have to accept that an officer shooting/suicide probably did take place. I am not disputing that part but the general assumption that Murdoch must have been the officer involved based on what appear to be survivor statements quoted in your link; those in turn led to further blanket statements in some books and culminated in James Cameron's film. Thus, Murdoch was placed in that seemingly unshakable position and still seems the most "popular candidate" for the misadventure. THAT is what I strongly disagree with because as I have shown in post #23 of this thread, none of those witnesses who named Murdoch as the officer involved were actually in a position to identify him and none of the witnesses who were actually in a position to identify the officer involved, named Murdoch.

My interest in the shooting incident began in 1985 with a chance meeting of a woman named Alice Braithwaite, who was the niece of a man named Clarence Woods, a wartime friend and fellow POW of John Collins, the scullion who survived the Titanic disaster as a 17 year old. Collins did not know Murdoch personally of course but was aware of the First Officer as the only Scottish officer on board. If you are British, you should know what is true even to this day - in an English majority crowd, non-English Brits like Scots, Welshmen and Irishmen tend to be more 'aware' of each other even without meeting and irrespective of rank or social position. I suppose Murdoch's strong Scottish accent would have been familiar to almost everyone who encountered him on board. John Collins certainly appears to have been able to recognize Murdoch easily and did so during the final moments of the Titanic's sinking that night in the vicinity of Collapsible A. Collins first discussed this with Woods when they were fellow POWS in Germany during WW1; after the war Collins visited Woods and that was where a very young Alice appears to have met the scullion. Apart from Mrs Braithwaite, I have written and spoken to Mary McKee, Collins' daughter. Mrs McKee herself did not have a great interest in the Titanic and was quite young when her father died. But she certainly recalled her father discussing this at length with her older brother, who was very interested. She recalled enough to tell me about her father John Collins witnessing the shooting incident but that appeared to be at least a few minutes before he tired to help, unsuccessfully as it turned out, a woman (probably Anna Palsson) and her baby to reach Collapsible A. It was during that chaotic period that he also saw the Scots officer knocked overboard, something that Lightoller reportedly also saw from a different vantage point.

When I communicated with Mrs McKee in 1990-91, she did not communicated with her older brother for many years but knew he was still alive and living somewhere in America. I did try to trace him based on the information she gave me but with my limited resources and work pressures, I did not make much progress and by 1995 was forced to give-up.

Meanwhile, there were other sources and speculations. As you know, in his 1986 book The Night Lives On, Walter Lord alluded to the shooting incident in the chapter "Shots in the Dark" and later considered the possibility that it might have been Murdoch. But by the time he was part of a live TV interview in 1989, Lord seemed to have changed his mind and opined that it was actually Wilde. As far as I know, Lord did not elaborate why he was thinking on those lines.

In the ensuing years I have used resources like ET, On A Sea of Glass etc and collated the information available including witness statements. That was what we discussed above and when one looks at the possibilities on both sides, you have to admit that the Murdoch candidacy becomes highly unlikely. I want to also point out that I have no personal reason to shift that 'candidacy' from Murdoch to Wilde; just that Walter Lord for reasons not revealed AFAIK, seemed to think that way; also, survivors Carl Jonsson and John Collins, who were close enough to have seen what happened, suggested it was Chief Officer (Wilde). That is just a statement of fact and I am not going to speculate further on it, at least not in this thread.

Lightoller was there to the end, saw Murdoch got washed off. I'll doubt Murdoch killed himself in the water.

As did John Collins, who was also there at the end.