Lightoller and collapsible A

[Cam Houseman]

No, Wild was not in charge of the port boats, Lightoller was.

In such a vessel the 1st looks after the stbd side and the 2nd looks after the port side, The C/O has a roaving commission and relays the Master's order to the juniors.
The lifeboat covers were taken off and the boats prepared for loading but not wound out to the embarkation position until (with the exception of No.7) the order to do so was given by the Master.
3/o Pitman was called, went aft to talk to 6/o Moody who was preparing the aft, port side boats. He went forward to check out the ice on deck, then went to the stabd. side to help Murdoch. Wilde was under the forecastle with the Carpenter and the Lamptrimmer.
Meantime, Lightoller was getting ready the fwd. port side boats
By the time the last actual boat left the starboard side, there were still 7 actual boats to be launched...all on the port side. Then, and only then, would Murdoch leave the starboat side and go over to the port side to assist. By the same token, Wilde would only have the port side to concern him until the launching of the collapsibles from both sides so therefore between the lunching of boat 13 until the preparations of the collapsible, everyone was seen on the port side.

Hey Jim merry christmas!! What did Wilde doing the whole time? Or Pitman and Boxhall? I think Moody was helping Lightoller, right?

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

What did Wilde doing the whole time? Or Pitman and Boxhall? I think Moody was helping Lightoller, right?

Boxhall was with Rowe responsible for the distress rockets and Morse lamp. He helped with a few boats as he said (even he did not mentioned which boat exactly) and left with emergency boat No. 2.
Pitmann left with lifeboat No. 5 which was the second boat which left the sinking ship.
Moody was mainly helping with the lifeboats at the port side, he was also mentioned on A Deck at the aft starboard side.
Wilde was overlooking the loading and lowering of the boats and helped to load and lower several of them.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

The question that is being raised here is WHY Murdoch would go over to the port side to load Lifeboat #10 when he was in charge of the starboard boats and at the time in question was busy with Lifeboats #13 and #15.

Based on Bill Wormstedt's article (and the witness statements therein) and Fireman Barrett's evidence I have a theory about that but have decided not to mention it here. I just don't want to start yet another thread that goes on to needlessly personal barbs interspersed with deliberately distracting questions. Each has his/her own opinions and so be it. Merry Christmas to you all. Stay safe.

 

[George Jacub]

No, Wild was not in charge of the port boats, Lightoller was.

Lightoller was most definitely NOT in charge of the port boats, regardless of what it might say theoretically in a book somewhere.
Compare how Murdoch oversaw the loading and lowering of all the starboard lifeboats. That's a man in charge.
Lightoller botched the loading of No.4. The loading of No. 8 was supervised by Captain Smith. Lightoller acted no differently than an ordinary seaman like Frederick Clench at the stern port boats, helping passengers into boats No. 12, 14 and 16 as Chief Officer Wilde passed them in. He played no part in lowering these three boats. When Lowe showed up he didn't report to his superior officer, but spoke with Moody,his junior, and decided on his own to leave with No. 14. Even when Lowe saw Lightoller pass by, Lightoller didn't take command.
Murdoch would have stayed in his own lane. When he crossed over to the port side of the ship momentarily he would have seen for himself that there were already three officers at the stern boats (Wilde, at the time, Lightoller and Moody). Why would he later cross over and make it four?

 

[George Jacub]

Why should he do that? What is your source for that?

Why do that? Maybe to save as many lives as possible by clearing the 7 lifeboats at the front of the ship.
The source? Murdoch was seen going to port just after lowering No. 13 to A deck. Why would he go there? Hmmmm. Who was already there when he arrived? Hmmmm. What would they talk about? Hmmmm.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I don't think there is any serious "Why" about Senior Officers and lifeboat responsibilities. Nominally they might have agreed that Murdoch would be in charge of the starboard boats and Wilde/Lightoller of the port boats. But even IF they had agreed to some sort of arrangement, they would have been flexible depending on the circumstances. There was no hard and fast rule that Murdoch should not cross over to the port side if the need arose and I believe that circumstances did arise that night.

By around 01:40 am, Pitman and Lowe had left the Titanic on lifeboats. Wilde had loaded and lowered Lifeboat #12 and gone to supervise completion of loading and lowering of Lifeboat #2. Boxhall had finished firing his rockets and arriving near #2 and he reported that as he did so he could hear the commotion below on A-deck where Lightoller was working on Lifeboat #4.

Lifeboat #10 was still being loaded at the time with Evans, Buley and Joughin among the crew. The port list was making the boat swing away from the side of the ship, making the loading difficult. At the same time on the starboard side, Murdoch and Moody had completed loading of Lifeboats #13 and #15 which were about to be lowered. When Fred Barrett arrived on A-deck a couple of minutes later, there was no officer present but he saw Nichols who then ordered him into Lifeboat #13 just before it was lowered.

If it was felt at around 01:40 am that an officer was required to complete the loading of Lifeboat #10, the most straightforward option would have been Murdoch. With #13 and #15 loaded and ready to be lowered, Moody could manage with Nichols' help and so Murdoch was able to go across to the port side (just before Barrett arrived near #13) and sort out #10.....which I believe he did.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

In relation to all this, what I'd like to know is whereabouts and activities of Purser McElroy after 01:30 am that night.

AFAIK, McElroy was aware of the seriousness of the situation fairly early and was seen by several First Class passengers urging people to get into their life vests and go on to the boat deck, including the Countess of Rothes. He then spent a time helping with lifeboats on the starboard side, notably #9, where he was seen by both Bathroom Steward Isaac Widgery (whom McElroy instructed to place a box of biscuits on the bottom of the lifeboat) and Boatswain's mate Albert Haines. Lifeboat #9 was lowered just before 01:30 am but what McElroy did afterwards is not well known.

He might have helped Murdoch with Lifeboat #11 as well but I am not aware of any witnesses who saw McElroy there. But in his book Dusk to Dawn, Paul Quinn postulates that the 'officer' that Fireman Taylor saw near Lifeboat #13 could have been McElroy.

It would be interesting to know his whereabouts and activities in the last hour before the Titanic sank.

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

The source? Murdoch was seen going to port just after lowering No. 13 to A deck.

And who saw him do so?

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

I just don't want to start yet another thread that goes on to needlessly personal barbs interspersed with deliberately distracting questions. Each has his/her own opinions and so be it. Merry Christmas to you all. Stay safe.[/COLOR]

Pity. Nothing against you personally. I have gone though all (for me) available survivor accounts (inquiry, private letters, newspaper accounts) and took the list of the ship into account which I have presented in my lifeboat research article.
So far no one has pointed out if I had a mistake somewhere and it is somehow ironic how the position of the ship itself (trim & list) is widely accepted when it comes to other shipwrecks (Lusitania) but somehow for Titanic this did not work at last when it comes for the lowering of the lifeboats.

Merry Christmas too!

 

[Arun Vajpey]

So far no one has pointed out if I had a mistake somewhere and it is somehow ironic how the position of the ship itself (trim & list) is widely accepted when it comes to other shipwrecks (Lusitania) but somehow for Titanic this did not work at last when it comes for the lowering of the lifeboats.

I don't think there is anything like a 'mistake' about many things as far as the Titanic is concerned. We all try to conjecture depending on survivor accounts as much as possible but the problem there is that there are conflicting statements not only between Survivor A and Survivor B but sometimes from the same survivor at different times. We can only speculate at the actual scenario.

I personally found Bill Wormstedt's analysis convincing but have no problem with those who think differently.

 

[Jim Currie]

Lightoller was most definitely NOT in charge of the port boats, regardless of what it might say theoretically in a book somewhere.
Compare how Murdoch oversaw the loading and lowering of all the starboard lifeboats. That's a man in charge.
Lightoller botched the loading of No.4. The loading of No. 8 was supervised by Captain Smith. Lightoller acted no differently than an ordinary seaman like Frederick Clench at the stern port boats, helping passengers into boats No. 12, 14 and 16 as Chief Officer Wilde passed them in. He played no part in lowering these three boats. When Lowe showed up he didn't report to his superior officer, but spoke with Moody,his junior, and decided on his own to leave with No. 14. Even when Lowe saw Lightoller pass by, Lightoller didn't take command.
Murdoch would have stayed in his own lane. When he crossed over to the port side of the ship momentarily he would have seen for himself that there were already three officers at the stern boats (Wilde, at the time, Lightoller and Moody). Why would he later cross over and make it four?

.
I have carried out enought lifeboat drills and launched enough boats t know what I am talking about.
Standard procedure is followed as closely as circumstances permit.
In an emergency, the Captain has to be in control and at a point where everyone can find him if they need to. Likewise during actual lifeboat clearing and loading operations, there has to be senior officer nearby at all times for juniors and ratings to relate to.
In an emergency, the first officer arriving on the boat deck takes charge of the entire boat deck until other's turn up, Thereafter, he stays at his allocated post.
Merchant ships are mainly 3 mate ships. The Chief Mate is in overall charge of the boat decks, the Second looks after one side and be Third, the other. Titanic was not a standard stanard ship. She had 6 Mates and effectively four boat decks, one foreard - one aft each side.
After Titanic hit the berg, the first off duty officer on the boat deck was Lightoller, he was there before the ratings arrived and commenced unlacing. As the crew arrived he distributed them among the boats, port and starbaord sides. Murdoch was still OOW on the bridge with the captain. Not until " finish with wheel and engines" would Murdoch or Moody be allowed to leave the bridge and go to the boats. When they did, Murdoch went to the forward starboard boats and Moody went to the aft port side. Lightoller took charge of the forward port side. Pitman wadered off to have a look at the ice on the foredeck, and Lowe was still in bed asleep.
Pitman came back to the forward starboard side and Lowe was still in his bunk. Eventually Lowe joined Pitman and Murdoch at the forward starboard side boats, helped(?) by Ismay. During alll this time, there were but two officers on the port side.] Lightoller an Moody. Is there any wonder that Mudoch finished first?
The Chief Officer also spent a considerable time below decks on inspections.
No my friend. Lightoller did his duty very well, given the circumstances and but for a bit of luck, would have been bedfellow to Murdoch, Moody and Smith.
Incidenatally, Smith was seen on both port and starboard boat deck forward ends.
What qualifies you to declare that Lightoller or any other seaman that night "botched" anything? In fact, I wonder how any of us would have fared in similar circumstances.

 

[Cam Houseman]

I don't think there is anything like a 'mistake' about many things as far as the Titanic is concerned. We all try to conjecture depending on survivor accounts as much as possible but the problem there is that there are conflicting statements not only between Survivor A and Survivor B but sometimes from the same survivor at different times. We can only speculate at the actual scenario.

I personally found Bill Wormstedt's analysis convincing but have no problem with those who think differently.

Hi Arun!
Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[George Jacub]

And who saw him do so?

School teacher Lawrence Beesley saw Murdoch go "across the ship to the port side” after seeing No. 13 lowered to A deck. Steward Frederick Crowe and passenger Charlotte Collyer said independently that they saw Murdoch around lifeboat No. 14 (which is on the port side). And Beesley saw him return to the starboard side of the ship, see No. 15 still on A deck, and angrily order it lowered.

What qualifies you to declare that Lightoller or any other seaman that night "botched" anything?

Facts and truth are the highest qualifier. Lightoller was given the job of loading and lowering lifeboat No. 4. Not only did he not get the boat into the sea. Not only did he not load a single passenger into the boat. But Capt. Smith ordered him to stop doing whatever he thought he was doing and to get to another boat and get on with it. When the boss tells you to stop dicking around, you have botched the job at hand.

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

School teacher Lawrence Beesley saw Murdoch go "across the ship to the port side” after seeing No. 13 lowered to A deck.

Beesley mentioned that incident in his book. Interestingly it changed from his early version in which it was only "an officer" and became in his book "An officer - I think First officer Murdock". It is in his book where that officer gave an order and then "went across the ship to the port side." a detail missing in his early version.
Also he stated (in his book) that this was directly followed by the the cry from below of "Any more ladies?" and after this Beesley jumped into No. 13.

Steward Frederick Crowe and passenger Charlotte Collyer said independently that they saw Murdoch around lifeboat No. 14 (which is on the port side). And Beesley saw him return to the starboard side of the ship, see No. 15 still on A deck, and angrily order it lowered.

Sorry I do not see that what you are stating. Beesley only speaks of an officer of which later in his book he thinks was Murdoch. Not sure where you have the latter part about Beesley see him return and angrily orders No. 15 to be lowered, I do not think it is in his book, unless I oversaw it. However it does not fit with what others said about Murdoch at No. 15.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I have carried out enough lifeboat drills and launched enough boats t know what I am talking about.

I am sure that is the case but there is no need to dismiss others' opinions out of hand with the kind of dismissive sneer that seems to be commonplace in your posts. It is like me pretending that just because I was a doctor for over 40 years, I have become a sudden authority on COVID.

Lightoller did his duty very well, given the circumstances

What qualifies you to declare that Lightoller or any other seaman that night "botched" anything? In fact, I wonder how any of us would have fared in similar circumstances.

Perhaps 'botched' was not the right word to use but Lightoller did make quite a few questionable decisions that night. While it is easy for us to judge with hindsight, some of his actions did cost lives.

1. Lightoller seems to have been the prime mover of the "women and children only" decision with port lifeboats although I am sure Wilde and perhaps Captain Smith went along with it at the very least. We are often told that Murdoch's action in allowing men - both passengers and crew - into boats when there were spaces available and no women or children in the immediate vicinity saved around 100 lives. But I wonder if anyone has calculated how many male lives were lost needlessly because of Lightoller's actions?
2. From Symons' testimony it seems like Boatswain Nichols, after helping with Lifeboats #3 and #1, went to the port side and joined Lightoller in working on Lifeboat #6. That must have been around 01:00 am with Lifeboat #1 still being loaded and so it is very likely that it was Murdoch who ordered Nichols to go across and help. But after only 5 minutes of the boatswain's arrival, Lightoller ordered Nichols to collect 6 sailors, go down to E-deck and open the gangway door there. It is vert likely that Nichols did not carry out that order (or open the D-deck door instead, for that matter) but the fact remains that Lightoller's order was not only impractical and dangerous but he was sending 7 men on a needless errand when they were already short of trained seamen to man the lifeboats on the port side.
3. Lightoller's decision to lower Lifeboat #4 to A-deck and load it from there when he should have known that those windows were locked. The shenanigans associated with that, including the up and down movement of the passengers involved, caused considerable delay.

So, while none of us can sit in judgement of Lightoller or anyone else involved in that disaster, I do believe that people do have the right to comment and put forward their opinions. Just because they do not have nautical experience does not mean they lack common sense.