Lights and Californian

[Julian Atkins]

Hi Steven,

That was also the conclusion of Lord Mersey at the British Inquiry, but without the considerable research of Sam Halpern. Lord Mersey didn’t really analyse any of the evidence and it’s problems. And came to the wrong conclusions as to the distance between Titanic and The Californian.

I myself think that David Dyer does go into this in considerably more further detail in his paper. It is a shame that he has not ever posted on here. I think David ought to review his paper again in the light of the publication of Sam’s book ‘Strangers on the Horizon’, and what Harland found in newspaper articles of Stone later having a nervous breakdown.

And there does remain very important primary source documents that has never yet been published. Captain Lord’s 21st May 1912 typed up statement referenced by Leslie Harrison and Paul Lee in the Liverpool maritime museum. Groves’ letters to Walter Lord in the National Maritime museum at Grenwich.

 

[Steven Christian]

Hi Steven,

That was also the conclusion of Lord Mersey at the British Inquiry, but without the considerable research of Sam Halpern. Lord Mersey didn’t really analyse any of the evidence and it’s problems. And came to the wrong conclusions as to the distance between Titanic and The Californian.

I myself think that David Dyer does go into this in considerably more further detail in his paper. It is a shame that he has not ever posted on here. I think David ought to review his paper again in the light of the publication of Sam’s book ‘Strangers on the Horizon’, and what Harland found in newspaper articles of Stone later having a nervous breakdown.

And there does remain very important primary source documents that has never yet been published. Captain Lord’s 21st May 1912 typed up statement referenced by Leslie Harrison and Paul Lee in the Liverpool maritime museum. Groves’ letters to Walter Lord in the National Maritime museum at Grenwich.

Yes I understand what your saying. The distance can be debated. But the fact that Titanic fired rockets and the Californian saw rockets and no other ship reported firing rockets means the Californian was looking at Titanic. That part is not debatable to me. Just a simple fact that doesn't need to be complicated. It's not rocket science (pun intended). Mr. Dyer's statement on it is what I think also. Looking forward to reading the article you suggested. Thanks again.

 

[marina_irc]

I'd be willing to contribute to a gofundme or some sort of other crowd-funding for one of our British members to go to the Liverpool museum and reproduce the 21 May statement of Captain Lord.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

The distance can be debated.

It has already been debated endlessly for over a 100 years and opinions varying from 5 miles to over 20 miles have been offered. I also feel that Sam Halpern's Strangers On The Horizon does the best job of coming closest by analyzing all available evidence in a logical and unbiased manner. Of course, no one can be absolutely certain but based on all the findings so far, the range of 11 to 14 miles between the Titanic and the Californian to me sounds like the closest we can come to actual fact.

But the fact that Titanic fired rockets and the Californian saw rockets and no other ship reported firing rockets means the Californian was looking at Titanic. That part is not debatable to me. Just a simple fact that doesn't need to be complicated. It's not rocket science (pun intended).

Exactly. The Californian was looking at the lights of the Titanic and vice versa. That is a simple and straightforward fact. Still there are many 'works' like Leslie Harrison's A Titanic Myth and posts on ET by a certain former member here have put forth irrelevant and ridiculous arguments about why that was not the case.

I recall seeing a recorded interview with Harrison on TV a very long time ago in which he went on and on about Benjamin Kirk being hoisted onto a coal basket on the Californian as an additional lookout or something without really explaining how that exonerated Captain Lord or Stone. He always seemed to be talking around the interviewer's question.

 

[Julian Atkins]

I think the Benjamin Kirk ‘coal basket’ incident is disproved by the pics of The Californian close to the Carpathia 8.30am on the morning of the 15th April (though the Louis Ogden album has a time of 8am).

@marina_irc The UK archives impose these days quite strenuous restrictions on publishing a whole document even if it is for ‘research’. I’ve got the same General Arrangement drawings of when The Californian was built that Sam has. (The same drawings appear in Leslie Reade’s book as a small pic but you need a magnifying glass to make any sense of them). If we had got them now from the Dundee Archives we probably wouldn’t be able to publish them. Conversely, I posted on here all the pics of The Californian after it’s construction because they were on the Dundee Archives Flickr site.

However, I think that the Liverpool Maritime Museum might be persuaded.

It is quite tricky. On the matter of Artie Moore I have encountered considerable local hostility to the disclosure of my research and that of others such as Steven and Arun.

But we must see or have published these primary source documents that reside in The UK archives funded by us as taxpayers!

(I do recall asking via email the USA Boston Library newspaper reports on The Californian, but they sent me - very kindly and promptly - the stuff in newspaper reports they had on Titanic’s sinking. But there was never a suggestion that I could not copy or publish what they sent, unlike the restrictions and charges that UK archives do these days).

 

[Julian Atkins]

This may get convoluted, but Leslie Harrison and Paul Lee both refer to the 21st May 1912 typed statement of Captain Lord. From a sort of legal perspective it may have been ‘self serving’ and clearly after the event and perhaps then of secondary evidence. (The same could arguably be said of Stone and Gibson’s 18th April statements). But, and this is very important, this 21st May typed statement then formed the basis of the Affidavit written by Leslie Harrison for Captain Lord to attest to it (you generally swear on the bible for an Affidavit) then you are peculiarly exalting a typed manuscript in May 1912 (Harrison describes the typewriter that Captain Lord still had) to something 47 years later of legal status.

It is in some respects quite extraordinary. Harrison perhaps ought to have simply got Captain Lord in 1959 to swear an affidavit that in May 1912 he typed out a statement, and exhibit that to the affidavit, and that to the best of his recollection what he typed in May 1912 was true.

(I haven’t checked tonight but the best of my recollection the 21st May 1912 typed statement of Captain Lord was not one of the exhibits to his 1959 affidavit. It ought to have been).

 

[Mike Spooner]

As I have been away for the last couple of week, where I can see this thread just goes on how far away was the Californian ship from Titanic. Then looking into the history of ET on this subject which has been under debate for the last 20 years now. Clearly this not an easy case to solve. As I can see from Sam Halpern books which must of taken years of research, No doubt other authors have also taken months if not a year of research too. But unfortunately for captain Lord there is a miracle man behind the scene who has work it all in weeks how away the Californian ship was. The miracle man certainty does not want any outsider telling him anything different the ship was more than 10 miles away. He also regards pushing through the icefield is no more than Balsawood therefore no danger to the ship, and can not see any reason why captain Lord can't rescue all.
The miracle man who clearly is not a seaman by a country mile was Lord Mersey. As I now wander if this more of a political case on hand.
So if ones take Mersey theory that the Californian was less than 10 miles away and set off at 1.15 local time how many was possible to rescue?
Which again has been well discuss over the years by qualified seamen the chances for captain Lord to rescue many were slim.
So was the inquiry base more on political issues! Perhaps that should been another topic to look into.