Richard Brown
Member
Yes, Cavell did report that. As for the rest, I am starting to think that Hendrickson only went to the engine room once. Although where 45mins come from I dont know.
Lights in the boiler rooms inconsistent testimony
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Richard Brown
Member
Heh, I was just thinking of Hendrickson in a loop. He saw the hatch flooding, went to the engine room for lamps, went to get men from the forecastle, saw the hatch flooding, went to the engine room for lamps, went to get men from the forecastle, saw the hatch flooding etc etc.
Samuel Halpern
Member
That's what happens Richard when I rely on memory instead of going directly to the source. Shows how fallible one's memory can be. Thanks for keeping me honest.
But it is possible that Smith may have rung down STOP shortly after handing Olliver the note if the engines ran ahead again for only 2 minutes (Dillon 3727-3729). But then you may be right in Olliver seeing the ahead order given after returning from engine room. That would also tend to explain Beesley's observation of the ship moving ahead shortly before he saw them start to uncover the boats.
By the way, when Olliver said he saw Smith ring AHEAD HALF it was on a blacked out bridge. It's not clear the telegraphs were actually lighted. Maybe Jim can give some insight here. But if Olliver based his observation on the position of the telegraph handles, it is possible that he may have mistaken AHEAD SLOW for AHEAD HALF. As you can see from the attached photo, AHEAD SLOW (green) is almost at the 3 o'clock position, and AHEAD HALF (yellow) is pointing a little beyond the 3 o'clock position. The actual telegraph handles are in STANDBY.
But it is possible that Smith may have rung down STOP shortly after handing Olliver the note if the engines ran ahead again for only 2 minutes (Dillon 3727-3729). But then you may be right in Olliver seeing the ahead order given after returning from engine room. That would also tend to explain Beesley's observation of the ship moving ahead shortly before he saw them start to uncover the boats.
By the way, when Olliver said he saw Smith ring AHEAD HALF it was on a blacked out bridge. It's not clear the telegraphs were actually lighted. Maybe Jim can give some insight here. But if Olliver based his observation on the position of the telegraph handles, it is possible that he may have mistaken AHEAD SLOW for AHEAD HALF. As you can see from the attached photo, AHEAD SLOW (green) is almost at the 3 o'clock position, and AHEAD HALF (yellow) is pointing a little beyond the 3 o'clock position. The actual telegraph handles are in STANDBY.
David G. Brown
RIP
A well-made point by Sam regarding the telegraph handles. Olliver would have been observing in near darkness. It was policy not to illuminate the telegraphs to preserve night vision while at sea. Olliver could well have mis-read the position of the handles.
-- David G. Brown
-- David G. Brown
Richard Brown
Member
Yes, I was assuming that it was a mistake by Olliver (or even Scott who may have been some distance from the telegraph). I doubt there were two ahead orders.
The timing really depends on how long the lights were out for, and thus how long we can allow between Hendrickson leaving and Olliver arriving in the engine room. It is possible it was after Olliver talked to the carpenter, but that would depend on how long it takes to get to the engine room. Here is some testimony:
Senator BURTON.
Did you hear him report anything to the captain?
Mr. OLLIVER.
No, sir; I did not wait for an answer. As soon as I got on the bridge, I had another message.
Senator BURTON.
What was the other message?
Mr. OLLIVER.
A message to take to the chief engineer.
So he could not have stood on the bridge for more than a few moments. Would it take him 2 mins (and this is the lower estimate for how long the engines ran ahead for) to get from there to the engine room?
As for the time period the engines ran ahead for, Dillon states the engines ran ahead for 2 mins, Scott claims 10 mins. Scott said there was 10-15 mins between stop and ahead (which fits with my timeline, as I think 10mins for Barrett is far to late: more likely 5mins). However, it is hard to know who is better at judging times. Dillon also has the engines running in reverse, which seems odd as most people (except Boxhall) state the engines just stopped (although the point was not really pressed, so it is possible these people just did not mention it).
Would running the engines ahead help to get rid of excess steam (as an alternative idea to those presented already)?
Oh, and how did the carpenter take a draft on E deck?
The timing really depends on how long the lights were out for, and thus how long we can allow between Hendrickson leaving and Olliver arriving in the engine room. It is possible it was after Olliver talked to the carpenter, but that would depend on how long it takes to get to the engine room. Here is some testimony:
Senator BURTON.
Did you hear him report anything to the captain?
Mr. OLLIVER.
No, sir; I did not wait for an answer. As soon as I got on the bridge, I had another message.
Senator BURTON.
What was the other message?
Mr. OLLIVER.
A message to take to the chief engineer.
So he could not have stood on the bridge for more than a few moments. Would it take him 2 mins (and this is the lower estimate for how long the engines ran ahead for) to get from there to the engine room?
As for the time period the engines ran ahead for, Dillon states the engines ran ahead for 2 mins, Scott claims 10 mins. Scott said there was 10-15 mins between stop and ahead (which fits with my timeline, as I think 10mins for Barrett is far to late: more likely 5mins). However, it is hard to know who is better at judging times. Dillon also has the engines running in reverse, which seems odd as most people (except Boxhall) state the engines just stopped (although the point was not really pressed, so it is possible these people just did not mention it).
Would running the engines ahead help to get rid of excess steam (as an alternative idea to those presented already)?
Oh, and how did the carpenter take a draft on E deck?
Michael H. Standart
Member
>>Would running the engines ahead help to get rid of excess steam <<
Uhhhh...yes...but not anywhere near as quickly as could be done by blowing it off. However, moving a ship with a busted nose isn't tops on the list of the brightest moves in the world (It tends to speed up flooding and aggravate damage.) Besides which, if you intend to move the ship, you hold off on blowing off any steam.
>>Oh, and how did the carpenter take a draft on E deck?<<
I don't think anybody bothered to take notice. By the time Boxhall found the man, he was already sounding the ship. By midnight, they had enough information to know what the ship's fate would be. Whether or not the carpenter stopped at that point or continued on for a time is lost to history.
Uhhhh...yes...but not anywhere near as quickly as could be done by blowing it off. However, moving a ship with a busted nose isn't tops on the list of the brightest moves in the world (It tends to speed up flooding and aggravate damage.) Besides which, if you intend to move the ship, you hold off on blowing off any steam.
>>Oh, and how did the carpenter take a draft on E deck?<<
I don't think anybody bothered to take notice. By the time Boxhall found the man, he was already sounding the ship. By midnight, they had enough information to know what the ship's fate would be. Whether or not the carpenter stopped at that point or continued on for a time is lost to history.
Charles B. Weeks Jr.
Member
Richard:
The carpenter wasn't taking the draft, rather he was taking soundings of the bilges, to see if they had water in them. Drafts are external measurements of how deep the hull sits in the water, the numbers painted on the bow and stern show this. Soundings are internal measurements of the depth of water in the bilges. In Titanic's case the increasing depth of water in the bilges was leading to an increased draft forward.
Regards, Charlie Weeks
The carpenter wasn't taking the draft, rather he was taking soundings of the bilges, to see if they had water in them. Drafts are external measurements of how deep the hull sits in the water, the numbers painted on the bow and stern show this. Soundings are internal measurements of the depth of water in the bilges. In Titanic's case the increasing depth of water in the bilges was leading to an increased draft forward.
Regards, Charlie Weeks
Samuel Halpern
Member
Hi Charlie.
I think Richard was asking what the procedure was to sound the bilges from E deck. I believe they had pipes that can be accessed from E deck which went all the way to ship's bottom so the carpenter can do that from that deck, which was the bulkhead deck. You might be able to explain this better.
I think Richard was asking what the procedure was to sound the bilges from E deck. I believe they had pipes that can be accessed from E deck which went all the way to ship's bottom so the carpenter can do that from that deck, which was the bulkhead deck. You might be able to explain this better.
Michael H. Standart
Member
>>I believe they had pipes that can be accessed from E deck which went all the way to ship's bottom so the carpenter can do that from that deck, which was the bulkhead deck. <<
The smart money is that you're right Sam. Sounding tubes have been around for a long time. On a number of ships on which I served, they were closed off with a cap which could be unscrewed with a T-wrench, after that, a tape or line with a weight on the end is sent down to get the measure of how much water was in the tanks.
Titanic's carpenter may not have even had to do that much. All you had to do was look down into a space through the hatch/ladderwell. If you saw water in there, you knew you had a problem!
The smart money is that you're right Sam. Sounding tubes have been around for a long time. On a number of ships on which I served, they were closed off with a cap which could be unscrewed with a T-wrench, after that, a tape or line with a weight on the end is sent down to get the measure of how much water was in the tanks.
Titanic's carpenter may not have even had to do that much. All you had to do was look down into a space through the hatch/ladderwell. If you saw water in there, you knew you had a problem!
Charles B. Weeks Jr.
Member
Sam:
I would agree, he was using the sounding tubes which ran from E-Deck down to the Bilge Wells. He would lower a brass rod on a line down till it hit bottom then bring it up. The rod was graduated in inches and usually covered in chalk. The height to which the chalk was washed of, told you how deep the bilge water was. E-Deck would have been a very logical place to have the tops of the sounding tubes, easy access the length of the ship.
Regards,
Charlie
I would agree, he was using the sounding tubes which ran from E-Deck down to the Bilge Wells. He would lower a brass rod on a line down till it hit bottom then bring it up. The rod was graduated in inches and usually covered in chalk. The height to which the chalk was washed of, told you how deep the bilge water was. E-Deck would have been a very logical place to have the tops of the sounding tubes, easy access the length of the ship.
Regards,
Charlie
Samuel Halpern
Member
Thanks Capt. Weeks and Michael. I just couldn't remember what those sounding tubes were called. It also explains why Olliver found the carpenter down on E deck already involved in doing that. The one issue that someone, I think it was Capt. Erik Wood, had raised is why did Capt. Smith first ask Olliver to find the carpenter, and later (when Boxhall returned from his first inspection forward) Smith also asked Boxhall to also find the carpenter to sound the ship?
Michael H. Standart
Member
Captain Smith may simply have spaced things out after he got the information. I have moments like that.
Samuel Halpern
Member
Something to speculate upon I suppose. Although what we know comes from Olliver, Hichens and Boxhall, it could be that they left off some little details. Olliver said he was told to find the carpenter and tell him to sound the ship, and that he found him on E deck forward somewhere doing it. Maybe Smith then told Boxhall to find the carpenter to get a report as to what he found so far? I bet Olliver came back to the bridge before Boxhall did at first. Smith would have known that they ship suffered some damage despite Boxhall saying he didn't see any in the passenger areas he looked at because the ship took on a small list to starboard very soon after the collision, at least according Hichens.
