mike disch
Guest
Is there a max list that affects launching of lifeboats? I would suspect that if the ship lists more than X degrees to starboard, you can't safely launch on the port side, and vice versa.
List & Lifeboats
- Thread starter mike disch
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Michael H. Standart
Member
Yes. It varies some from ship to ship depending on the sort of davits that are in use. For the Andrea Doria for example, the ship was designed to be able to launch lifeboats with up to a 20° list. Since the ship took a 22° list to starboard within moments of the collision, the boats on the port side were rendered useless.
mike disch
Guest
Thanks Mr. Standart.
Do you happen to know the maximums for the Titanic?
Do you happen to know the maximums for the Titanic?
Michael H. Standart
Member
Not offhand. I suspect they weren't even close to what the Andrea Doria had going for her because of the different sort of davits. The trick is to keep the boat from scraping along the side of the ship on the way down to the point where it can't be safely lowered. My understanding is that this was a problem for the Titanic during the evacuation.
Fortunately, the list didn't go much beyond a few degrees or this story would have had an ending even worse then the one they already had.
Fortunately, the list didn't go much beyond a few degrees or this story would have had an ending even worse then the one they already had.
David G. Brown
RIP
The initial list to starboard was prior to the launching of lifeboats, so had no impact on that activity. Later, the ship listed to port. QM Rowe gives a good account of the difficulty getting a starboard side boat to slide over the rivet heads in the steel plating.
The problem of friction, whether rivet heads or other projections, can be solved with skids (and even skates) that are temporarily attached to the boats only while they are being lowered. This has never been a particularly successful solution for any but minor lists.
On many cargo ships there is only one fully-enclosed lifeboat that rides on wheels in a track. The track is a hill worthy of any amusement park roller-coaster. It goes directly over the stern. No matter which way the ship rolls, this type of lifeboat can be launched. It comes down the track like a roller-coaster car and goes airborne before plunging beneath the surface of the water. Those who have tried say you ain't done nothin' until you'd done this type of abandon ship drill.
Back to Titanic...the list to port meant that boats on the port side were swinging away from the ship. If the davits were cranked all the way out, there could have been a sizeable gap between the deck and the boat gun'l. This may explain the lower numbers of people loaded on the port side. Any gap would have appeared huge in the darkness of a slanting deck. This would be doubly true for women who were encumbered by the long dresses of the period. Rather than attempt such a frightening step over a 60-foot deep chasm, I'm sure many people decided to try the starboard side where the boats nestled against the side of the ship.
This may also explain the difference in Lightoller's attitude toward men in the boats and Murdoch's. On the starboard side there would have been a healthy mix of sexes. On the port, the mix could might well have been overweighted on the male side. Lightoller may have assessed the situation in terms that if he started allowing more men in the boats, he would have had an uncontrollable rush.
--David G. Brown
The problem of friction, whether rivet heads or other projections, can be solved with skids (and even skates) that are temporarily attached to the boats only while they are being lowered. This has never been a particularly successful solution for any but minor lists.
On many cargo ships there is only one fully-enclosed lifeboat that rides on wheels in a track. The track is a hill worthy of any amusement park roller-coaster. It goes directly over the stern. No matter which way the ship rolls, this type of lifeboat can be launched. It comes down the track like a roller-coaster car and goes airborne before plunging beneath the surface of the water. Those who have tried say you ain't done nothin' until you'd done this type of abandon ship drill.
Back to Titanic...the list to port meant that boats on the port side were swinging away from the ship. If the davits were cranked all the way out, there could have been a sizeable gap between the deck and the boat gun'l. This may explain the lower numbers of people loaded on the port side. Any gap would have appeared huge in the darkness of a slanting deck. This would be doubly true for women who were encumbered by the long dresses of the period. Rather than attempt such a frightening step over a 60-foot deep chasm, I'm sure many people decided to try the starboard side where the boats nestled against the side of the ship.
This may also explain the difference in Lightoller's attitude toward men in the boats and Murdoch's. On the starboard side there would have been a healthy mix of sexes. On the port, the mix could might well have been overweighted on the male side. Lightoller may have assessed the situation in terms that if he started allowing more men in the boats, he would have had an uncontrollable rush.
--David G. Brown
Claire McConville
Guest
I know, I'm late again but just a thought. I am no techie but considering the trouble the crew seem to have had in getting the lifeboats out (listing etc), would it really have made any difference if the Titanic DID have the required amount of lifeboats ? I'm thinking that they only just had time to get the ones off that were there as it was.... wouldn't any others have been useless ?
I'm new by the way so if you stick the knife in can it be a blunt one
I'm new by the way so if you stick the knife in can it be a blunt one
Michael H. Standart
Member
The reality is brutally simple. The Titanic had twenty boats including collapsibles. Her performance in the real world is that she got 18 of 20 away befor the ship foundered. Whether she could have done better is and has been a matter of some rather fractious debate. Since she didn't have the extra boats, the points there are entirely academic.
Claire McConville
Guest
I think I just found my answer or partly so. From what I've read in other threads, approx. an hour was wasted trying trying to head for land before she would sink. I would imagine the lack of lifeboats prompted the decision to make a dash for it where, if there were ample lifeboats they may not have started moving again and had the time they needed to lower all of them. I had been thinking that the lifeboat situation would have had no bearing... I was wrong..... maybe.
Claire
Claire
Michael H. Standart
Member
At 400 miles off the Grand banks of Newfoundland...to say nothing of any seaport capable of taking her in...the Titanic was way too far away from land for any realistic chance of making it there. Captain Smith would have known this. Some of us are of the opinion that the Titanic was trying to move closer to the established shipping lanes in the hopes of encountering a ship that the passengers and crew could be transfered to, although there's really no way of knowing. It makes a lot more sense then attempting a mad dash to land that they would have known didn't have a prayer of succeeding.
Claire McConville
Guest
Ooops, I worded wrong.... perhaps I should have said "trying to head for land/ship" or just "help". My general thinking was that, had there been lifeboats to accommodate all on board, the hour would probably not have been wasted and the job of lowering the lifeboats may have commenced a lot sooner.
Claire
Claire
Michael H. Standart
Member
You may be right.
It may also be that at the time that the decision was taken to head north, there's good reason to beleive that Captain Smith was unaware of the extent of the damage. Quite possibly, it may not have been that bad but was aggravated by starting to make way again.
Unfortunately, it would appear that the people who had the direct knowladge didn't survive the sinking. That's the problem with trying to deal with the "what if's." The people with the direct knowladge to answer the questions raised are no longer around to do so.
It may also be that at the time that the decision was taken to head north, there's good reason to beleive that Captain Smith was unaware of the extent of the damage. Quite possibly, it may not have been that bad but was aggravated by starting to make way again.
Unfortunately, it would appear that the people who had the direct knowladge didn't survive the sinking. That's the problem with trying to deal with the "what if's." The people with the direct knowladge to answer the questions raised are no longer around to do so.
I know that this has been covered at length in other threads. But Mike did a good job of explaining what I would have said, I add one thing further.
Titanic got 18 out of 20 lifeboats away before the sinking. Some testimony would indicate (to include the watchs of Gracie and Pitman) that perhaps less then 45 minutes was issued between the time the ship hit to the time abandonment began.
Titanic got 18 out of 20 lifeboats away before the sinking. Some testimony would indicate (to include the watchs of Gracie and Pitman) that perhaps less then 45 minutes was issued between the time the ship hit to the time abandonment began.
George Pastarmatzis
Member
Hi! Something on the issue of "list": I am not sure where I found it, but I believe I located a site some weeks days ago where one of the first class female passengers knew that something was wrong by looking the list in her perfume bottles in her stateroom and also in her door by not been able to open/close easily! Is a that true, and if so, would that be actually possible? I mean, would that be possible so soon after the collision or perhaps much later on? Thank you!!!
Michael H. Standart
Member
It would be quite possible if the ship had taken in enough water to have an adverse effect on her stability. As to the door that wouldn't open or close properly, some of us are of the opinion that this would point to some distortion in the ship's struicture. Possibly damage from racking and excessive bending loads.
George Pastarmatzis
Member
Thanks Michael! Do you have any idea of who that lady might have been?
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