Arun Vajpey
Member
I don't know. It was sent to me by Finnish researcher Silja Vuorikuru when I corresponded with her. She might be an ET member; I'll check.
Loading Collapsible D
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Arun Vajpey
Member
Very likely one of them was Edith Evans although she was 36 years old at the time. The most likely candidate for the second young woman is 18-year old Martta Hiltunen?
Arun Vajpey
Member
I messaged Silja about this and the following was her response.
Thank you for your question!
Did you mean this link: Titanicin uppoamisesta 104 vuotta – Martta, 18, hukkui matkalaukut käsissään For copyright issues, please contact the writer of the article: tanja.perkkio(a)yle.fi.
I hope this information will help you.
Gaston Sam
Member
It was Lucas who mentioned that, they may not have known there weren't plugs for those in any case. Lightoller not mentioning that wouldn't be of significance considering the level of truthfulness and omision sorrounding his accounts.
Yes, I forgot to mention that, specially given the fact that there was actually a boat being readied (namely Collapsible A). I'm under the impression Lucas was always keeping an eye Boat D as the last reliable meaning of survival.
Mrs. Futrelle is one of a number of 1st class surviving passengers oftenly placed in different lifeboats. I believed she left along with Mrs. Harris aboard Collapsible D.
Bob Read
Member
The crew didn’t seem to have much familiarity with the Engelhardt boat. I think some of them even referred to them as Berthon boats.
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Ioannis Georgiou
Member
Mrs. Futrelle gave different versions of her escape. However Mrs. & Miss Lines mentioned that Mrs. Futrelle was in their boat (No. 9).
Here is one of the interviews by Mrs. Futrelle: "After I left the ship two collapsible lifeboats were launched. In the last one was Mrs. Henry B. Harris, wife of the theatrical manager; Mrs. Thorn and Mrs. Hoyt, that I remember....the ship at that time had sunk to within 15 feet of the first deck... " (The Atlanta Constitution, April 26 1912 )
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Alex Kiehl
Member
Collle D for Mrs. Futrelle. No question about it.
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Ioannis Georgiou
Member
She herself stated also boat No. 9.
Here is a small part which was shared by Mike Poirier:
"He took me to the to the starboard side. "There was a boat a minute ago," he said. It was just being lowered. It was No. 9, the last to leave. He put me in as they were launching it. "
Also Mrs. Harris in No. D did not mentioned her.
Here is a small part which was shared by Mike Poirier:
"He took me to the to the starboard side. "There was a boat a minute ago," he said. It was just being lowered. It was No. 9, the last to leave. He put me in as they were launching it. "
Also Mrs. Harris in No. D did not mentioned her.
Mike Poirier
Member
The consensus from her various accounts is that she was in 9. She mentions Paddy McGough and Elisabeth and Mary Lines. She was not in D. She only relayed what she heard about D from Renee Harris
Mrs. Futrelle is one of a number of 1st class surviving passengers oftenly placed in different lifeboats. I believed she left along with Mrs. Harris aboard Collapsible D.
Mrs. Futrelle is one of a number of 1st class surviving passengers oftenly placed in different lifeboats. I believed she left along with Mrs. Harris aboard Collapsible D.
Arun Vajpey
Member
I realize that there there are some uncertainties with a few passengers and crew regarding the actual lifeboats that they were rescued on but for a fairly prominent First Class passenger like May Futrelle it is unusual, especially when the differences of opinion involves two lifeboats lowered 35 minutes apart and from opposite sides of the ship. Lifeboat #9 was starboard rear while Collapsible D was fitted to the port forward davits of #2.
This makes me wonder if there was a lady with a close resemblance to Mrs Futrelle on Collapsible D whom some mistook for the latter?
This makes me wonder if there was a lady with a close resemblance to Mrs Futrelle on Collapsible D whom some mistook for the latter?
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Mike Friedman
Member
For that we would need to examine the individual accounts that placed her in Collapsible D. Unless I'm mistaken, isn't she the only one who mentioned her being in that boat? Which would be cancelled out by her own contrary accounts putting her in Boat 9. The mutual mention of each other as occupants of Boat 9 by Mrs. Lines and her seems to confirm her presence there.
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George Jacub
Member
Can anyone direct me to the source(s) of the statement that Mrs. Lines saw Mrs. Futrelle in Boat 9 and vice versa?
Arun Vajpey
Member
I have not read all versions of Lily May Futrelle gave of her rescue but overall, I feel that it is by far more likely that it was on Lifeboat #9 rather than Collapsible D. There a a few reasons.
- Elizabeth Lines IMO was one of the more reliable witnesses and while she could have made a mistake in the dark, I think it is unlikely. If she was sure that Mrs Futrelle was on #9, it could be true.
- Also, loading of #9 proceeded in a rather more orderly fashion under supervision of Murdoch and McElroy. In other words, nothing extraordinary happened during the loading and lowering of that lifeboat and accordingly, Mrs Futrelle did not mention any unusual event other than some crewmen staring at her in despair.
- The loading of Collapsible D on the other hand, was a lot more eventful. Lightoller and Wilde and formed a semi-circle of sailors around the boat and while there was a pressing crowd of mostly men around, only women and children were allowed through. There were events like Michel Navratil Sr handing over his small two children into the boat and stepping back himself, Edith Evans and another woman (most likely Martta Hiltunen) unable to get through the crowd into the boat before it was lowered, etc.
- The lowering was done in a bit of hurry because of the risk of men rushing the boat. There were only 20 to 22 people on board #D when it was lowered, less than half its capacity.
- Then Woolner and Steffansson jumped into the Collapsible D from A-deck as it was being lowered, Duquemin and Hoyt swam over after it reached the water etc.
Did Lily Futrelle mention any of the above events as having happened in the lifeboat that she was in? AFAIK, no.
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Alex Kiehl
Member
You raised some good points, Arun. But I thought Duquemin was a stowaway on D. Has that information been shared? I always believed that Hoyt was the only one pulled from the water by D.
Arun Vajpey
Member
Well, during evacuation of a sinking ship like the Titanic, people manage to get into lifeboats using several methods, some of them rather 'unconventional'. Therefore, it is difficult to describe anyone in a lifeboat as a 'stowaway'.
During loading of Collapsible D, Wilde and Lightoller had reportedly formed a semi-circle of sailors around the lifeboat, allowing only women and children through. The cordon must have been quite tight against the pressing crowd because a few women - Edith Evans and Martta Hiltunen among them - were unable to get through the throng to board before the officers decided that they had no alternative but to lower the lifeboat even though it by then had less than half its capacity of people. Under those circumstances IMO, it would have been almost impossible for the stonemason Joseph Duquemin, a large and well-built man judging by his pictures, to have sneaked on board without anyone noticing. But the fact remains that Duquemin was saved on board Collapsible D and therefore, his claim of having jumped into the sea and swum for it must be true. There is other supporting evidence for this probability (see below)
Collapsible D was lowered at 02:05 am from the boat deck with some 20 people on board, including Mrs Jane Hoyt. As it passed A-deck, Hugh Woolner and Mauritz Bjornstrom-Steffanson successfully jumped into the lifeboat. They were the only adult male passengers on board when the lifeboat reached the water. Duquemin claimed to have jumped into the water afterwards and swum for the boat, only to be initially refused entry but allowed when he told the on-board crew that he could row. He then said that he helped to pull in another swimmer into the lifeboat and that other man could only have been Frederick Hoyt.
It was known within the Hoyt family circles that upon reaching America and after the post-disaster dust settled, Frederick Hoyt helped Joseph Duquemin to find a good job in Stamford, Connecticut. That was where the Hoyts were headed whereas Duquemin's original destination had been Albion, New York. The most likely reason for Hoyt's action is gratitude to Duquemin for probably saving his life. It is inconceivable that Hoyt, a First-Class passenger from New York, would otherwise have known Duquemin, a rough-hewn stonemason from Guernsey travelling in third-class. The likely scenario would have been that the more athletic Duquemin reached Collapsible D first and after being allowed in, managed to persuade the crew to pull-in Hoyt as well.
