Lusitania Memorials


Noel F. Jones

Member
May 14, 2002
857
0
0
Senan:

"Jeez, Noel, give it a rest. You have a bee in your bonnet...."

There are no bees in any bonnets here but I do perceive someone apparently in denial of their own history.

"I have no doubt that they stood on the steps and waved their silly placards..."

From the contemporaneous photographs I observed that the placards in question were not the insubstantial ephemera of a passing day that you infer, rather they were substantial panels of some permanence which had been lashed together all round the structure with wire rope or similar. Because of the reluctance of its custodians to take appropriate remedial action, tourists and visitors returning to the mainland from Ireland were writing letters to the papers about it.


It may have been that the British authorities were characteristically reluctant to pursue the matter because of the delicate political situation obtaining at the time. The British press were less reticent.

"It is not a case of the monument being perceived as English. That is so jingoistic as to be ridiculous."

I merely opined that in the shallow revisionist paramilitary psyche the torpedoing of the Lusitania may have been perceived as an "English" affair and that by extension the memorial was some kind of territorial intrusion. Why else would it have been targetted?

Apropos your attempt at analogy: Nelson's column is a monument not a memorial and as such it may be defaced but not desecrated. If the demonstrations, placarding etc. you refer to were inflicted upon the Cenotaph in Whitehall that would be a different matter.

Reverting to Cobh: the statement to be rebutted was to the effect that throughout Ireland graves and memorials were respected even by paramilitary organisations.

And I consider it duly rebutted by the information I provided and the routes to provenance I have indicated. The matter rests with you as you are geographically nearer to the matter than I. If you do not wish to go down these routes so be it but please do not substitute political posturing for inaction in that regard.

As the record will show, I have eschewed political stance beyond that minimum needed to respond to your attempt to peremptorily dismiss the information I was providing. And I see you're still at it, viz.:

"So Noel, I regret you introduced this note into the discussion. You seem to feel the need to prove you are right. ... and I say for the last time that the Lusitania memorial was not "desecrated" for "months and years" by the IRA. So your specific allegation remains untrue, and I wish you had the good grace to withdraw it."

I am quite unable to meet you on that. However, having duly provided the requisite rebutting information, you will find me quite amenable to a mutual agreement to let the matter rest.

Noel
 
Apr 11, 2001
4,565
5
223
Wow, Jim- and I thought Rita had a story! I think our Inez deserves at least a made-for-t.v. epic. This has it all from gun running to crowned heads. It's a script for Hitchcock with plot better than fiction!
 

Jason D. Tiller

Moderator
Member
Dec 3, 2000
8,248
11
308
Niagara Falls, Ontario
96128.jpg


Fireman T. Cain
Fireman P. Casey
Fireman J. Coady
3rd Cl. Waiter C. Driscoll
Matron A. Enderson
Fireman J. Ford
2nd Cl. Waiter W. G. Gardner
2nd Cl. Waiter C. S. Gilroy
Waiter T. Hannan
Cook J. B. Hine
Stewardess J. E. Howdle
Able Seaman J. P. Huston
Served as Robb
Stewardess M. E. Jones
3rd Cl. Waiter C. Lapphane
Fireman D. Lee

1914-1918

In honoured memory of those named who serving on the RMS Lusitania died when the ship was sunk by enemy action on 7 May 1915 and are buried nearby.

Fireman I. Linton
Fireman J. Madden
Waiter K. McKenzie
1st Cl. Waiter J. H. Murphy
Greaser O. O'Hare
Able Seaman W. E. Quirk
Fireman J. Roach
Stewardess A. J. Roberts
Asst Butcher G. Ronnan
Asst Steward T. E. Stewart
Steward W. S. Thomas
Fireman J. Toole
Stewardess M. Weir
Trimmer C. Welsh
Steward H. E. Wood
 

Senan Molony

Member
Jan 30, 2004
1,689
4
161
Dublin
Noel,

I am going to say this: Your contention is that the Cob Town Council and the townspeople of Cobh engaged in prolonged xenophobia.

The council were either pusillanimous or tacitly supported the hijacking over "months and years" of their central monument. That charge is bad enough.

The police, of course, stood idly for the same period by during this strange vigil by malcontents.

But your wider charge is most grievous:

That the population of Cobh, whose immediate forbears went selflessly out to the rescue, would allow such a phenomenon to occur in their midst. Would deny their own families...

It is absurd.

It is preposterous.

It is untrue.

The only reason I am sensitive to it is because it amounts to a complete calumny on a whole town.

Russians, Jews, Poles, French, Americans, and yes, British, walked along those streets in 1915.
They do so today.

And the real truth is this:

The people of Cobh are the most welcoming on earth.

No-one there is anything less than wholeheartedly embracing of all nationalities. As anyone who has been there will vouch.

In short it is a great town to visit, and I do not recognise this suggestion that it is some kind of "valley of the squinting windows."

Regards OM,

Senan
 

Mike Poirier

Member
Dec 31, 2004
1,473
3
233
Hello Mama
I know, the story of George and Inez Vernon (Butler) as told by Jim, is a terrific one and is so full of twists and turns. Since Hitchcock is dead(or is he? HAHAHA) I can't imagine who would have the subtle nuance for the dark side if human nature to produce such a film. Any ideas?

Jason
Thanks for posting pictures. They came out very nice.
Mike
 
Jan 28, 2003
2,525
5
223
I was "blown up" twice by the IRA in London in the 1970s.. Once by a postbox, which I happened to be passing, and once in an hotel, in which I happened to be having a drink. Apart from tearing my dress, I was very lucky. I was also subjected to at least three other bomb alerts - we just took our drinks out onto the roadside, and waited for the authorities to finish their investigations. Not much else we could do because really, the arguments were not of our generation, going back as they do for a few hundred years. I'd be quite interested to hear the views of anyone who has actually experienced these things personally, other than just thought about them from a very, very great distance... in either time or philosophy.
 

Inger Sheil

Member
Dec 3, 2000
5,342
35
308
Perhaps that's a conversation for another time, Monica. I know at least one other participant in this thread had a close brush with paramilitary violence during the revival of the Troubles - when Loyalists inflicted the bloodiest single day on the Irish people since the end of the Irish War of Independence/Civil War.
The people of Cobh are the most welcoming on earth.
Amen
 

Inger Sheil

Member
Dec 3, 2000
5,342
35
308
Nice to see you in 'Lusitania Land'. I didn't realize you were interested? Is it more the ship or the people.
A bit of both, Mike - you can blame Eric Sauder and Senan Molony for most of my sneaking interest! Also work like your own and some others like Ben Holme. I've done a bit of work on some of the deck officers, partly for comparative purposes and partly for their own innate interest. Not much, though - I'm strictly a dabbler.

Great photos, Jason! I still remember getting up there into the cemetery and seeing the old sign. And the yew trees around the mass graves, with the late sunlight filtering through. We were gone much longer than expected, hunting through long grass for the graves, but arrived back in town after dark to find that the townspeople in one of the pubs had kindly taken my father - who was in poor health - under their wing and kept him entertained and well looked after.
 
May 3, 2002
799
24
173
58
Wellington, New Zealand
Jason

many thanks for the photos.
two questions my friend...

photo1 How high are those cliffs? I think about 100 feet please correct me if I am wrong.

Photo2 Is that land part of Galley or Seven heads?

many thanks

Martin
 

Mike Poirier

Member
Dec 31, 2004
1,473
3
233
Hello Inger
Dabbler or not, glad to see you here. Yes, it is nice when your friends interests are infectious.
My desire to do research and share it with others in the form of a post or article comes from people like Jim Kalafus, Peter Kelly, Shelley, Mike Findlay, Craig Stringer et al who have such an enthusiasm for tracking down info. The research process, to me, is very exciting. I can't imagine how other people find it dull!
If I helped, in some small way, cultivate your interest in the Lusy and her people, it makes me very happy.
Mike
 

Noel F. Jones

Member
May 14, 2002
857
0
0
There's none so blind....

I'll not trouble myself to deconstruct your latest partisan perorations other than:

"It is absurd.

It is preposterous.

It is untrue."


If I may borrow a quote from the great Anna Russell (it's not everyone who has their own street) – "I'm Not Making This Up, You Know!"

Ever helpful, I'll give you a possible handle on the information you are so very evidently fighting shy of. Try:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/Contact_Us/index.asp

Des O'Driscoll might be your man there. Ask him if he can give you contemporaneous photographic evidence and text on the hi-jacking of the Lusitania memorial in Cobh by the IRA for propaganda re Bobby Sands circa 1985.

And when you've done that Senan – and only then, – come back here and tell us about it.

Noel
 

Jason D. Tiller

Moderator
Member
Dec 3, 2000
8,248
11
308
Niagara Falls, Ontario
"The people of Cobh are the most welcoming on earth."

I agree and I'll second what Inger said. They are absolutely wonderful people and very hospitable. No doubt about it.

Hi Mike,

You're welcome for the photos. I'm glad you enjoyed them.

Hi Ing,

Thanks, glad you enjoyed them. Your photos are great as well! It says a lot about the townspeople when they did something, as kind as that. I'm sure your father appreciated it.

Hi Martin,

You're welcome, I'm glad you also enjoyed them. As far as your questions go, I'm not exactly sure how high the cliffs are, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are one hundred feet. That land may be part of Seven Heads, but again I'm not quite sure.
 

Similar threads