Lusitania Memorials

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Inger Sheil

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Nice to see you in 'Lusitania Land'. I didn't realize you were interested? Is it more the ship or the people.
A bit of both, Mike - you can blame Eric Sauder and Senan Molony for most of my sneaking interest! Also work like your own and some others like Ben Holme. I've done a bit of work on some of the deck officers, partly for comparative purposes and partly for their own innate interest. Not much, though - I'm strictly a dabbler.

Great photos, Jason! I still remember getting up there into the cemetery and seeing the old sign. And the yew trees around the mass graves, with the late sunlight filtering through. We were gone much longer than expected, hunting through long grass for the graves, but arrived back in town after dark to find that the townspeople in one of the pubs had kindly taken my father - who was in poor health - under their wing and kept him entertained and well looked after.
 
Jason

many thanks for the photos.
two questions my friend...

photo1 How high are those cliffs? I think about 100 feet please correct me if I am wrong.

Photo2 Is that land part of Galley or Seven heads?

many thanks

Martin
 
Hello Inger
Dabbler or not, glad to see you here. Yes, it is nice when your friends interests are infectious.
My desire to do research and share it with others in the form of a post or article comes from people like Jim Kalafus, Peter Kelly, Shelley, Mike Findlay, Craig Stringer et al who have such an enthusiasm for tracking down info. The research process, to me, is very exciting. I can't imagine how other people find it dull!
If I helped, in some small way, cultivate your interest in the Lusy and her people, it makes me very happy.
Mike
 
There's none so blind....

I'll not trouble myself to deconstruct your latest partisan perorations other than:

"It is absurd.

It is preposterous.

It is untrue."


If I may borrow a quote from the great Anna Russell (it's not everyone who has their own street) – "I'm Not Making This Up, You Know!"

Ever helpful, I'll give you a possible handle on the information you are so very evidently fighting shy of. Try:


Des O'Driscoll might be your man there. Ask him if he can give you contemporaneous photographic evidence and text on the hi-jacking of the Lusitania memorial in Cobh by the IRA for propaganda re Bobby Sands circa 1985.

And when you've done that Senan – and only then, – come back here and tell us about it.

Noel
 

Jason D. Tiller

Staff member
Moderator
Member
"The people of Cobh are the most welcoming on earth."

I agree and I'll second what Inger said. They are absolutely wonderful people and very hospitable. No doubt about it.

Hi Mike,

You're welcome for the photos. I'm glad you enjoyed them.

Hi Ing,

Thanks, glad you enjoyed them. Your photos are great as well! It says a lot about the townspeople when they did something, as kind as that. I'm sure your father appreciated it.

Hi Martin,

You're welcome, I'm glad you also enjoyed them. As far as your questions go, I'm not exactly sure how high the cliffs are, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are one hundred feet. That land may be part of Seven Heads, but again I'm not quite sure.
 
Great pictures, Jason.
The pictures bring back wonderful memories of trips to Cobh & Kinsale.

For the victims of the Lusitania, and those they left behind: their stories need to be remembered, and their memories retained; my prayers for all of them, that such an tragedy will never be forgotten.
 

Inger Sheil

Member
If there's one person on earth who does not need tips on Irish newspaper contacts and archival research, it's Senan Molony (he is, after all, a senior correspondent for the largest newspaper in Ireland, as well as the one man who has done perhaps more work than any other in Irish newspaper archives).
I'll not trouble myself to deconstruct your latest partisan perorations...
And there speaks the pot, having a word to the kettle.
Your photos are great as well! It says a lot about the townspeople when they did something, as kind as that. I'm sure your father appreciated it.
He did
happy.gif
Like just about everyone else who has spent time in Cobh, he thought the people there were wonderful, their hospitality unmatched. Even later that night in the Mauretania pub, when Oz beat Ireland in the RU World Cup we were all watching on TV, the genuine warmth and cameraderie were unabated.

I need to find the rest of my Cobh/Old Head photos.
I can't imagine how other people find it dull!
Welllllll...to be fair...I can understand why others don't all share my enthusiasm for building biceps by hauling out GRO index volumes, covering decades at a time. Or willingly submit themselves to the blinding headache that arises from an afternoon with the microfiche. But then, they'll never know that very particular thrill arising from finding a missing piece of the puzzle.
 
Hi Ing, and God save all others here,

I am glad, Ing, that you tramped through the long grass. The Old Church has plenty more to offer.

It also includes the graves of Napoleon’s physician at St Helena (maybe the wallpaper did for him too), that of Jack Doyle, the “Gorgeous Gael” boxer who had a colourful life to say the least, and Charles Moore, who wrote that splendidly martial poem, The Burial of Sir John Moore at Corunna:

Not a drum was heard, not a funeral note
As his corpse to the ramparts we hurried
Not a soldier discharged his farewell shot
O’er the grave where our Hero we buried


You may have passed the impressive edifice to Admiral Sit Robert Stokes, who died of pneumonia within a few days of his arrival in Queenstown. That necessitated the recall of the superannuated Vice Admiral Coke, who was thus in charge at the time of the Lusitania emergency. Stokes might have made a better fist of it.

There are some powerful maritime connections, besides the Lusy. Just in front of Mass Grave A, row 22, is the memorial to those lost on the Mars.

96173.jpg


You can see the stone has survived very well its 100-odd years here. There is a bouquet of poppies from the Royal British Legion (Republic of Ireland branch).

The Mars tragedy occurred exactly ten years before the Titanic hit her iceberg. On April 14, 1902, a 12-in round jammed in the breech of the port gun of the Battleship’s foreturret.

96174.jpg


When the order was given to open the breech, air rushed in, re-ignited the smouldering charge, and blew the whole turret off, taking the lives of two lieutenants and six men.

The memorial was paid for by sailors of the Mars and the Jupiter.

Also right alongside here are the remains recovered from the British submarine A-1. The A-1 was the first British submarine ever to enter service (leaving aside prototypes).

She was on an exercise here on March 18, 1902, when she submerged to practise an attack on the Juno, of Lusitania fame. She never resurfaced.

The passenger Berwick Castle heard some clunking under her keel, and it is supposed she ran over the unfortunate A-1, the first in a very long list of British submarine casualties.

Among the Lusitania private graves, at row 16, close to the perimeter path, is a rank of stones erected by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission to commemorate the Captain and several crew of the freighter Anglo-Californian.

96175.jpg


This is one of my favourite stories. The Anglo-Californian, like the Lusitania, was attacked by a German submarine in 1915. Her Captain, Frederick Archibald Palstrow, won a posthumous Victoria Cross for gallantry, and lies here.

From my copy of the Illustrated London News, from which I also obtained the pictures:

“One of the bravest deeds in the annals of the British merchant service was told when the London steamer Anglo-Californian, reached Queenstown on July 5, [1915] with Captain Archibald Parslow and eight men dead, and eight others wounded, after an encounter with a German submarine off the Irish coast.
The Anglo-Californian, which belongs to the Nitrate Producers Steamship Company, was homeward bound from Quebec when the submarine overtook her, and began firing at her wireless apparatus. ‘Our Captain,’ said a survivor, ‘was a brave man, and kept on the bridge smiling at the enemy as shot and shell were discharged at his vessel.’

96176.jpg


Eventually the gallant Captain was killed. His son, the Second Mate, who was by his side, was knocked down, but bravely took the wheel and steered the ship, lying on the bridge, with shells bursting around him, ‘until assistance arrived’ and the submarine disappeared.
Our correspondent states that over thirty horses on board were killed. The submarine, he adds, fired mainly at the bridge and at the boats being lowered. The ship was hit about twenty times.”

We honour all these British dead. We honour their noble foes of the Deutsches Kiegsmarine. And we salute all men who do their duty.
 
"If there's one person on earth who does not need tips on Irish newspaper contacts and archival research, it's Senan Molony (he is, after all, a senior correspondent for the largest newspaper in Ireland, as well as the one man who has done perhaps more work than any other in Irish newspaper archives)."

So what the hell's he doing questioning my veracity when he presumably has the requisite provenance at his fingertips?

"And there speaks the pot, having a word to the kettle."

In my reluctance to deconstruct the aforesaid partisan perorations, my intention was merely to spare the rest of you the tedium of reiterative prolixity. Your dutiful impartiality is appreciated.

And Senan,

Should you encounter the Great Historical Airbrush at the Examiner you could of course consult the contemporaneous proceedings of the local town council. I doubt anyone's got round to 'redacting' them.

And if that fails, give Bill Howie a call at Rushbrooke just up the road from Cobh itself. Just mention my name and the m.v.Accra. He was resident at the material time. Furthermore he's a Scotsman and therefore immune to the political amnesia that you give me to believe proliferates thereabouts.

Noel
 

Jason D. Tiller

Staff member
Moderator
Member
Thanks John. Yes, it sure does bring back wonderful memorials of the trip.

"Even later that night in the Mauretania pub, when Oz beat Ireland in the RU World Cup we were all watching on TV, the genuine warmth and cameraderie were unabated."

That's of the great things about them. They are so genuine and warm.

Very interesting stories and photos, Senan. Thank you for sharing them. The memorial to the Mars is quite impressive. I would imagine it stands well against the rest, in that area.
 

Inger Sheil

Member
So what the hell's he doing questioning my veracity when he presumably has the requisite provenance at his fingertips?
Senan at no point has questioned whether placards were placed around the Lusitania memorial. The issues you differ on are whether these constitute a 'desecration', and whether these were targeted specifically at the Lusitania because of a perceived Englishness.

You have indicated that you are operating from a memory of something you read 24 years ago. Can you tell me exactly what those placards said? Verbatim? You are the one making the allegations - the onus of proof is upon you, however high-handedly you demand that Senan research your remembered observations.

Senan has already pointed out the very apt analogy of the Nelson memorial and its role in a range of protests, and I would further extend the analogy to include D.C. memorials in America. The memorial/monument distinction is completely specious - these structures are both memorials and monuments. If you had been to Cobh - and I assume you have - you would be aware that the Lusitania memorial occupies a central place in a square off the high street. It is the most prominent local site suited for a protest or demonstration, including the civil rights demonstrations of 20 odd years ago. It is a natural focal point for protests.

Have you been to Cobh and asked local people what their memory of placards that went up 25 years ago is? If not, why do you presume to anticipate their reaction?
In my reluctance to deconstruct the aforesaid partisan perorations, my intention was merely to spare the rest of you the tedium of reiterative prolixity
'Reiterative prolixity' - exceedingly tedious at that - pretty much sums up what your repetitious posting on this subject has become.

Everyone else who has participated in this thread - Senan Molony included - has being trying to discuss the Lusitania commemorative ceremonies. You have shown no interest in doing so. You, instead, focus on your own disputed interpretation of a past incident, basing your posts on something you remember reading about decades ago.

If anyone here is dishonouring the memory of the Lusitania, it's not the civil rights demonstrators of the early eighties. It's you, Noel, by your insistant harping on this issue.

Get over it and move on. As matters stand, you are dishonouring both the dead and the living.
 

Inger Sheil

Member
Cheers for posting that image of the Mars, Senan. It is remarkable that the stone has survived in that condition - has there been any restorative work done on it, do you know? Anchor and chains are a popular graveyard theme, but this was a particularly fine and detailed example of the type. It caught my attention as well when I visited, and I think I have some photographs of it among my misplaced images.

The saga of the Anglo-Californian reminds me somewhat of the fate of the Addah, one of the Elder Dempster vessels Harold Lowe had served aboard in earlier years. The captain had ordered his crew to abandon ship, but then had his gunner open fire with the stern gun. She hit the U-boat but failed to inflict serious damage. When the captain and gunner jumped overboard and made it to a liveboat, the U-boat commander rammed and sank it.

I remember seeing the CWGC stones in Cobh - like so many of them in military and civilian battlefields around the world, they are deeply moving.

Apparently the HMS/M A1 is still in remarkably good condition.

http://www.submarineheritage.com/gallery_a1.htm
 
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