D
Dave Bryceson
RIP
I have just one comment to make in reply to Post 41. Mr Lopez, it really is time that you, and anyone else who still believes Mr Garate`s story, woke up and smelled the roses.
D
Dave Bryceson
RIP
Regrettably there is a very sad and tragic footnote to be added to the matters discussed in this forum. Readers will recall that at the start of The Reforma`s enquiries into the Nye/Uruchurtu allegations in April 2012 the newspaper received a letter from Gertrudis Uruchurtu, the direct-line grandaughter of Manuel Uruchurtu, who stated that no one in her family had ever heard of the alleged incident and that the story had been made up by Alejandro Garate Uruchurtu. Gertrudis` voluntary and revealing contribution caused the first tear in the web of lies that Mr Garate had been spreading for thirty years. The further enquiries made by The Reforma were to totally destroy his version of Manuel Uruchurtu`s last moments on the Titanic.
I have only this month become aware that in July 2013 Gertrudis lost her life in an apparent burglary at her home in Aguascalientes City, 300 miles north west of Mexico City. It appears that the burglar entered the house occupied by 75 year old Gertrudis and her bed ridden husband Leopoldo. The intruder was disturbed by a 31 year old male employee of the couple who was stabbed three times. Gertrudis attempted to intervene and she suffered 34 stab wounds from which she died at the scene. The burglar escaped taking cash, jewellery and the couples` car. Five weeks later a 22 year old man was arrested in his hometown of Guadalajara and he has been charged with her murder.
Gertrudis Uruchurtu was a highly intelligent woman. In 1960 she had graduated from Universida Nacional Autonoma de Mexico (The National Autonomous University of Mexico - UNAM) as a Bachelor of Pharmaceutical Chemist Biologist. She worked for 30 years as a High School Science teacher during which time, and during her retirement years, she wrote many published essays and papers on scientific and environmental issues. Her loss, particularly in such a cruel manner, is to be deplored. I have sent condolences to the Uruchurtu family. May she rest in peace.
I have only this month become aware that in July 2013 Gertrudis lost her life in an apparent burglary at her home in Aguascalientes City, 300 miles north west of Mexico City. It appears that the burglar entered the house occupied by 75 year old Gertrudis and her bed ridden husband Leopoldo. The intruder was disturbed by a 31 year old male employee of the couple who was stabbed three times. Gertrudis attempted to intervene and she suffered 34 stab wounds from which she died at the scene. The burglar escaped taking cash, jewellery and the couples` car. Five weeks later a 22 year old man was arrested in his hometown of Guadalajara and he has been charged with her murder.
Gertrudis Uruchurtu was a highly intelligent woman. In 1960 she had graduated from Universida Nacional Autonoma de Mexico (The National Autonomous University of Mexico - UNAM) as a Bachelor of Pharmaceutical Chemist Biologist. She worked for 30 years as a High School Science teacher during which time, and during her retirement years, she wrote many published essays and papers on scientific and environmental issues. Her loss, particularly in such a cruel manner, is to be deplored. I have sent condolences to the Uruchurtu family. May she rest in peace.
I
Ioannis Georgiou
Member
These are really sad news about Gertrudis Uruchurtu!
Jason D. Tiller
Staff member
Moderator
Member
Very sad and tragic news regarding Gertrudis Uruchurtu.
B
Bob Godfrey
Member
Another tragedy for the Uruchurtu family. Very sad news.
D
Dave Bryceson
RIP
This is getting really silly now.
I see that Mr Lopez has made no reply to the valid questions raised by Bob Godfrey in Post 43. Instead he has transferred his commenting onto a facebook page and one of his comments there has upset me and compelled me to write this
OPEN LETTER TO MR JAVIER LOPEZ SEVILLA
Mr Lopez,
Thank you for your interesting contribution towards this debate which has helped the total number of times the site has been visited now to over 5,000. You and I sit at different sides of the fence when it comes to the true/untrue question but your Post 41 does contain one statement with which you and I are in complete agreement - “With all those evidences Mr Garate has always been the same in his speeches to affirm such story” Yes I agree with that much, but you have chosen to ignore the fact that each one of his evidences was discredited during the enquiries made by The Reforma newspaper. Mr Garate was even claiming to be a member of a non-existent Titanic Society!
I ask you to look at just three of his evidences:-
A. Mr Garate has been claiming for many years that Edith (Rosenbaum) Russell made a statement to the US Inquiry in which she states that she witnessed the heroic act of Manuel Uruchurtu in Lifeboat 11. A simple search on the Inquiry website will confirm The Reforma`s finding that Miss Russell was not called to give evidence at either the American or British Enquiry. Yet Mr Garate continues to assert that he, and other relatives and Titanic researchers have seen the document in question. Doesn`t it strike you as strange that faced with the only document he alleges can prove his case neither Mr Garate, nor any of the others he refers to, made a copy of the document or a note of the chapter and verse where it can be found?
Lets turn to Edith Russell herself. She was a prolific speaker/writer about the Titanic for the rest of her long life (She died in 1975 at the age of 98 Quote: “I`ve written about that night until I am cock-eyed”) I see you enjoy researching so here is a project for you - here is a list of 8 articles by and interviews with Edith (there are many more as well) Since, according to Mr Garate, she was a witness to this heroic event she surely wrote and spoke about it many times. Work your way through the list and count how many times she mentions Mr Uruchurtu`s courageous act to Elizabeth Nye. Also, how many mentions she gives of Mr Uruchurtu.
1. She was interviewed on her arrival in New York and the interview she gave was printed in The New York Times of 23 April 1912. (The interview is also reproduced on ET)
2. A lengthy article she wrote in 1934 appears on the Charles Pellegrino website.
Charles Pellegrino Web Site
3. Pageant Magazine Oct 1953 edition. A six page article `I was on the Titanic` Pages 76-81.
4. In 1957 Miss Russell was one of a number of survivors who were interviewed by BBC TV. This can be seen on YouTube at:
Titanic Archive - 1957 Interviews - YouTube
5. A lengthy and detailed article by Miss Russell appeared in The Ladies Home Companion magazine Vol II, No 6 May 1964. `I was Aboard The Titanic` Pages 88-97
6. Miss Russell recorded a 20 minute radio talk for the BBC in 1970 which can be heard today at BBC - Archive - Survivors of the Titanic - Line Up | Edith Russell
7.. A further interview, date unknown, with British Pathe News can be seen on YouTube at
Titanic Documentary (Date Unknown) - YouTube
8. An article in The Doncaster Evening Post from 1974 appears on this site.
So, Edith had at least 8 opportunities to tell the world the wonderful story Mr Garate says she witnessed. How many mentions does Miss Russell give to Manuel Uruchurtu during these opportunities? I can save you the bother of checking Mr Lopez; The answer is not one. Doesn`t that tell you something? Please, check as many other of Edith`s articles as you like to see if you can find a mention of the incident Mr Garate alleges. I will tell you now - you would have more chance of reaching a successful outcome if you spent your time looking for Elvis!
B. Another of Mr Garate`s persistent claims (mentioned again by him in Post 25) has been that there is a recognition of the heroic act in United States Congress, 62nd Congress, 2nd Session,20 August 1912, Document 933 having been found there by Robert Bracken, a US Titanic Researcher. The Reforma enquiries confirmed that there is no recognition of a heroic act in the document. If you cannot accept that I would be happy to send a copy of the document to you. I spoke with Robert Bracken and he denied ever finding any information connecting Elizabeth Nye with Manuel Uruchurtu. After I mentioned this to Mr Garate in Post 31 he replied in Post 33 still listing Mr Bracken as one of his evidences. How ridiculous was that!
C. Search the web and you will find many websites on which Mr Garate has said that the memoirs of Col Pita contain his account of a meeting between Elizabeth Nye and the widow of Mr Uruchurtu. The Reforma found the memoirs which showed Mr Garate to be incorrect yet again. The Col mentions only an unnamed woman who spoke to the widow in fluent Spanish. Yet in Mr Garate`s version the woman, who he says was Elizabeth Nye, then travelled to meet with other relatives where it was found necessary to ask the local school teacher to translate the conversation! Does that sound like the same woman to you? To top it all Mr Garate adds (and this is my favourite fib of them all!) that the conversation was recorded by Mr Gilberto Escobosa, Official Chronicler of the City of Hermosillo. To bolster the importance of that statement Mr Garate added “I think there it might not be any doubt in the official documents related by a historian and chronicler” Considering that The Reforma enquiries confirmed that Mr Escobosa was not born until after the conversation took place I think there is a great deal of doubt!
I could go on but quite frankly I am getting bored with picking holes in his story, there are so many. If you wish to carry on believing everything that Mr Garate says about the Titanic then of course you have every right to hold that, almost solitary, view. The onus probandi however remains with Mr Garate, it is for him to prove his case, but do you seriously think that with his track record so far he will ever be able to do that ? I would prepare yourself for a very long wait.
I said at the start that one of your remarks on facebook had upset me. I find it very very sad, lamentable infact, that you are seeking to withhold due recognition to a fellow countryman of yours, Antonio Ferrary. You have posted a denial of his nationality and claimed that Encyclopedia Titanica only lists his nationality as unknown. Not so, it is twice shown as Mexican. I can only presume, that for some unknown reason you wish Manuel Uruchurtu to continue to be known as the only Mexican on the Titanic. You are therefore attempting to deprive a gallant fellow citizen of yours the full recognition he thoroughly deserves as an undisputed Hero of the Titanic Disaster. As a trimmer in the Engine Dept keeping the electricity running for the benefit of others Mr Ferrary did not have the chance that the passengers had of possible escape from the decks. Instead he had to remain at his duty post and watch the water rising around him until his life was over. Shame on you.
If you do not wish to accept Mr Ferrary`s nationality from a British website then I suggest you look at this Mexican site dated 14 Apr 2012
www codigosguanajuato com/data2/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6495:fueron-dos-los-mexicanos-que-perecieron-con-el-titanic&catid=42:cultura&Itemid=65
Códigos, los Signos del Estado - FUERON DOS LOS MEXICANOS QUE PERECIERON CON EL TITANIC
Will you be putting that link on facebook or shall I ?
Mr Lopez, it is you who should be making an enormous apology. Not to me, but to the memory of Mr Ferrary, and to the two innocent people these discussions entwine, Manuel Uruchurtu and Elizabeth Nye. I am sure they would all be appalled at the nonsense that has been emanating from Mexico on this subject.
I see that Mr Lopez has made no reply to the valid questions raised by Bob Godfrey in Post 43. Instead he has transferred his commenting onto a facebook page and one of his comments there has upset me and compelled me to write this
OPEN LETTER TO MR JAVIER LOPEZ SEVILLA
Mr Lopez,
Thank you for your interesting contribution towards this debate which has helped the total number of times the site has been visited now to over 5,000. You and I sit at different sides of the fence when it comes to the true/untrue question but your Post 41 does contain one statement with which you and I are in complete agreement - “With all those evidences Mr Garate has always been the same in his speeches to affirm such story” Yes I agree with that much, but you have chosen to ignore the fact that each one of his evidences was discredited during the enquiries made by The Reforma newspaper. Mr Garate was even claiming to be a member of a non-existent Titanic Society!
I ask you to look at just three of his evidences:-
A. Mr Garate has been claiming for many years that Edith (Rosenbaum) Russell made a statement to the US Inquiry in which she states that she witnessed the heroic act of Manuel Uruchurtu in Lifeboat 11. A simple search on the Inquiry website will confirm The Reforma`s finding that Miss Russell was not called to give evidence at either the American or British Enquiry. Yet Mr Garate continues to assert that he, and other relatives and Titanic researchers have seen the document in question. Doesn`t it strike you as strange that faced with the only document he alleges can prove his case neither Mr Garate, nor any of the others he refers to, made a copy of the document or a note of the chapter and verse where it can be found?
Lets turn to Edith Russell herself. She was a prolific speaker/writer about the Titanic for the rest of her long life (She died in 1975 at the age of 98 Quote: “I`ve written about that night until I am cock-eyed”) I see you enjoy researching so here is a project for you - here is a list of 8 articles by and interviews with Edith (there are many more as well) Since, according to Mr Garate, she was a witness to this heroic event she surely wrote and spoke about it many times. Work your way through the list and count how many times she mentions Mr Uruchurtu`s courageous act to Elizabeth Nye. Also, how many mentions she gives of Mr Uruchurtu.
1. She was interviewed on her arrival in New York and the interview she gave was printed in The New York Times of 23 April 1912. (The interview is also reproduced on ET)
2. A lengthy article she wrote in 1934 appears on the Charles Pellegrino website.
Charles Pellegrino Web Site
3. Pageant Magazine Oct 1953 edition. A six page article `I was on the Titanic` Pages 76-81.
4. In 1957 Miss Russell was one of a number of survivors who were interviewed by BBC TV. This can be seen on YouTube at:
Titanic Archive - 1957 Interviews - YouTube
5. A lengthy and detailed article by Miss Russell appeared in The Ladies Home Companion magazine Vol II, No 6 May 1964. `I was Aboard The Titanic` Pages 88-97
6. Miss Russell recorded a 20 minute radio talk for the BBC in 1970 which can be heard today at BBC - Archive - Survivors of the Titanic - Line Up | Edith Russell
7.. A further interview, date unknown, with British Pathe News can be seen on YouTube at
Titanic Documentary (Date Unknown) - YouTube
8. An article in The Doncaster Evening Post from 1974 appears on this site.
So, Edith had at least 8 opportunities to tell the world the wonderful story Mr Garate says she witnessed. How many mentions does Miss Russell give to Manuel Uruchurtu during these opportunities? I can save you the bother of checking Mr Lopez; The answer is not one. Doesn`t that tell you something? Please, check as many other of Edith`s articles as you like to see if you can find a mention of the incident Mr Garate alleges. I will tell you now - you would have more chance of reaching a successful outcome if you spent your time looking for Elvis!
B. Another of Mr Garate`s persistent claims (mentioned again by him in Post 25) has been that there is a recognition of the heroic act in United States Congress, 62nd Congress, 2nd Session,20 August 1912, Document 933 having been found there by Robert Bracken, a US Titanic Researcher. The Reforma enquiries confirmed that there is no recognition of a heroic act in the document. If you cannot accept that I would be happy to send a copy of the document to you. I spoke with Robert Bracken and he denied ever finding any information connecting Elizabeth Nye with Manuel Uruchurtu. After I mentioned this to Mr Garate in Post 31 he replied in Post 33 still listing Mr Bracken as one of his evidences. How ridiculous was that!
C. Search the web and you will find many websites on which Mr Garate has said that the memoirs of Col Pita contain his account of a meeting between Elizabeth Nye and the widow of Mr Uruchurtu. The Reforma found the memoirs which showed Mr Garate to be incorrect yet again. The Col mentions only an unnamed woman who spoke to the widow in fluent Spanish. Yet in Mr Garate`s version the woman, who he says was Elizabeth Nye, then travelled to meet with other relatives where it was found necessary to ask the local school teacher to translate the conversation! Does that sound like the same woman to you? To top it all Mr Garate adds (and this is my favourite fib of them all!) that the conversation was recorded by Mr Gilberto Escobosa, Official Chronicler of the City of Hermosillo. To bolster the importance of that statement Mr Garate added “I think there it might not be any doubt in the official documents related by a historian and chronicler” Considering that The Reforma enquiries confirmed that Mr Escobosa was not born until after the conversation took place I think there is a great deal of doubt!
I could go on but quite frankly I am getting bored with picking holes in his story, there are so many. If you wish to carry on believing everything that Mr Garate says about the Titanic then of course you have every right to hold that, almost solitary, view. The onus probandi however remains with Mr Garate, it is for him to prove his case, but do you seriously think that with his track record so far he will ever be able to do that ? I would prepare yourself for a very long wait.
I said at the start that one of your remarks on facebook had upset me. I find it very very sad, lamentable infact, that you are seeking to withhold due recognition to a fellow countryman of yours, Antonio Ferrary. You have posted a denial of his nationality and claimed that Encyclopedia Titanica only lists his nationality as unknown. Not so, it is twice shown as Mexican. I can only presume, that for some unknown reason you wish Manuel Uruchurtu to continue to be known as the only Mexican on the Titanic. You are therefore attempting to deprive a gallant fellow citizen of yours the full recognition he thoroughly deserves as an undisputed Hero of the Titanic Disaster. As a trimmer in the Engine Dept keeping the electricity running for the benefit of others Mr Ferrary did not have the chance that the passengers had of possible escape from the decks. Instead he had to remain at his duty post and watch the water rising around him until his life was over. Shame on you.
If you do not wish to accept Mr Ferrary`s nationality from a British website then I suggest you look at this Mexican site dated 14 Apr 2012
www codigosguanajuato com/data2/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6495:fueron-dos-los-mexicanos-que-perecieron-con-el-titanic&catid=42:cultura&Itemid=65
Códigos, los Signos del Estado - FUERON DOS LOS MEXICANOS QUE PERECIERON CON EL TITANIC
Will you be putting that link on facebook or shall I ?
Mr Lopez, it is you who should be making an enormous apology. Not to me, but to the memory of Mr Ferrary, and to the two innocent people these discussions entwine, Manuel Uruchurtu and Elizabeth Nye. I am sure they would all be appalled at the nonsense that has been emanating from Mexico on this subject.
B
Bob Godfrey
Member
When Javier recenly questioned the birthplace of the trimmer Anon(io) Ferrary (or possibly Herrary) on the ET Facebook page, I posted an image scan of the entry in the Titanic's signing on sheets in which the place of birth stated by this crew member and recorded at that time is clearly seen to be Mexico. As Javier provided a 'like' for this submission he presumably approved of it and must surely now accept that there were two Mexican-born victims of the Titanic. I have, however, again received no response to my repeated request for documentary evidence in support of the extraordinary claims which have been made on behalf on Manuel Uruchurtu and which, in the absence of supporting evidence from any survivor, can only be regarded as fabrication.
I
Ioannis Georgiou
Member
I think it was in 1962 when Edith Rosenbaum (Russell) gave a interview in German TV (together with Alfred Nourney) and there is no mention of Mr Uruchurtu too.
B
Bob Godfrey
Member
Snce I made my last posting above, Javier has posted again on the ET Facebook page and expressed his opinion of the image scan of the Titanic's signing-on sheet. He declares that the 'x' in the word 'Mexico' is not an 'x' at all, and that the word does not have the conventional accenting which would be expected if written by a Mexican. He is concerned that Mr Herrary (or Ferrary) changes the spelling of his name in different documents created in different times and locations and protests that the name 'Anton Ferrary' is Italian rather than Spanish in origin. And he makes the extraordinary suggestion that the scan bears evidence of possible tampering in Photoshop. I have responded as follows:
The precise spelling of names is frequently changed by emigrants to better blend in with the country and culture to which they have moved, so endless speculation over exactly how this man spelled his name in different locations and at different times in his life is not very productive. The best guide is his signature. I have already provided you with a scanned image of the Titanic's signing-on sheet, and pointed out that the spelling of the trimmer's name in his signature appears to be Herrary. Does that name not suggest Spanish ancestry?
In the signing-on sheets, only the signatures were written by the crewmen concerned. The other details (age, birthplace, etc) were dictated to and written by a clerk. In the same document the same clerk has written other place names like 'Oxford', always with the 'x' constructed in exactly the same way as in the name 'Mexico'. And a clerk in a Southampton office would know nothing of course of the appropriate written accents for the name as it would be written by a Spaniard or Mexican.
I will ignore your suggestion that the image I supplied had been tampered with. By whom? And why on earth would you suspect that?
As an aside, do you believe that a man cannot be Mexican if his name is not obviously of Spanish origin? Would you consider that any crewman of the Titanic who gave his birthplace as Britain but whose name was Italian, Spanish, Irish, Indian, Chinese or whatever could not have been telling the truth?
And I'm still waiting for you to tell us which survivor of the Titanic brought back evidence about Manuel Uruchurtu's behaviour on the boat deck.
The precise spelling of names is frequently changed by emigrants to better blend in with the country and culture to which they have moved, so endless speculation over exactly how this man spelled his name in different locations and at different times in his life is not very productive. The best guide is his signature. I have already provided you with a scanned image of the Titanic's signing-on sheet, and pointed out that the spelling of the trimmer's name in his signature appears to be Herrary. Does that name not suggest Spanish ancestry?
In the signing-on sheets, only the signatures were written by the crewmen concerned. The other details (age, birthplace, etc) were dictated to and written by a clerk. In the same document the same clerk has written other place names like 'Oxford', always with the 'x' constructed in exactly the same way as in the name 'Mexico'. And a clerk in a Southampton office would know nothing of course of the appropriate written accents for the name as it would be written by a Spaniard or Mexican.
I will ignore your suggestion that the image I supplied had been tampered with. By whom? And why on earth would you suspect that?
As an aside, do you believe that a man cannot be Mexican if his name is not obviously of Spanish origin? Would you consider that any crewman of the Titanic who gave his birthplace as Britain but whose name was Italian, Spanish, Irish, Indian, Chinese or whatever could not have been telling the truth?
And I'm still waiting for you to tell us which survivor of the Titanic brought back evidence about Manuel Uruchurtu's behaviour on the boat deck.
D
Dave Bryceson
RIP
Recently Mr Javier Lopez entered his collection of photographs of Manuel Uruchurtu on a Mexican Auction site with a start price of US$ 15,000. I think that the followers of this forum would be interested to read the description Mr Lopez has entered below a picture of the items.
You will see that, despite the contents of the last 40+ posts, Mr Lopez remains firmly entrenched behind the Garate party line, and that he definitely has a B (for Bryceson!) in his bonnet! A translated copy of the entry is shown below without further comment from me.
Manuel Ramirez was Federal Deputy Uruchurtu several times during the Porfiriato and 1 time during the first year in office Y. Francisco Madero. He drowned aboard the RMS Titanic as a passenger in first class that fateful night in the cold waters of the Atlantic. He was the only Mexican on board but it is falsely believed that there was another Mexican as crew member named "Anton Ferrary" whose biography is brief and confusing but all in the same biography indicates that Anton was NOT Mexican. Biography of Anton Ferrary presents an altered website "Encyclopedia Titanica" document in which an alteration of the word "Mescina" (Italy) treating of showing as "Mescico" (with "sc" without accent seen in the letter "e"). Anton is obviously Italian Ferrary because no Mexicans among the crew, but Italians. "Anton" is short for "Antonino" (Italian word) and the name "Ferrary".
After testing and studies dating from the disaster in 1912, Manuel Uruchurtu was declared "Hero of Chivalry" by the Government of Sonora, Mexico, by the fact of having given his place in the lifeboat to a woman of English origin called Elizabeth Ramell. Critics of this story of heroism have not presented any evidence so far to deny the documents submitted by some of the descendants of Manuel Uruchurtu (other descendants have no idea who was Manuel Uruchurtu). Among the critics is the writer who curiously Guadalupe Loaeza wrote in 2012 a book entitled "The Knight of the Titanic" under the guidance of Alexander Uruchurtu, nephew of Manuel Uruchurtu. Later, Guadalupe Loaeza publicly recanted this story falling into the lie of David Bryceson-of English origin and Elizabeth Ramell- biographer whose dismal research did not return bad data involving Manuel Uruchurtu. Even if that were the case, the lack of data does not deny a possible fact, if anything it would only crash into question but with so many documents supporting this act of chivalry do not understand why Mr. Bryceson aims to clean up the bad image compatriot Elizabeth as the story according to Manuel Uruchurtu Ramell lied to access the lifeboat Uruchurtu and save his life in those dramatic moments of the sinking. The full story of the lie Elizabeth Ramell to Uruchurtu can be seen in hundreds of pages on the internet as well as many evidence for the history and act of chivalry
Some of the photos shown here are signed and dedicated. In one Jacinto Pallares, father of law in Mexico and Manuel Uruchurtu teacher appears. In 2 of the photographs appears with his wife Gertrude.
The story goes that fate played a trick on Uruchurtu Manuel should not have died because the Titanic. First, Uruchurtu had missed the boat because the train taking him to the port of Cherbourg where the Titanic was late addressed. However, despite this delay, the Titanic sarpo also delayed, which gave time Uruchurtu address. Second, Uruchurtu should not address the Titanic but another liner called Paris, but switched tickets with colleague Guillermo Obregon who also was visiting with Porfirio Díaz and Ramón Corral, exiled in France. And finally, once having the Titanic hit the iceberg, Uruchurtu must address the lifeboat # 11 to be diplomatic, but in an act of chivalry decided to give up his seat to Elizabeth Ramell.
The price of the photos are in American dollars and is based on several elements: being a collection and not a single piece, its age (over 100 years), its size or format, the characters that appear Uruchurtu (Jacinto Pallares, its wife Gertrude, colleagues), firms Uruchurtu, dates, dedications, conservation status, the trajectory of Uruchurtu (lawyer, politician, writer and notary public), the rarity of the photos (I only know other 3 more) the importance for the history of Mexico and the world, be passenger 1st class passenger being drowned in the Titanic, the price of other similar photos with collectors, being the only Mexican on board the Titanic, to be officially declared "Hero of Chivalry" by a State, having a biographical book by an author recognized to commemorate the 100th anniversary of his death, uncle Ernesto Uruchurtu be former Regent of the City of Mexico, be the subject of several documentaries including one of the History Channel, etc.
I am at your disposal for any questions

You will see that, despite the contents of the last 40+ posts, Mr Lopez remains firmly entrenched behind the Garate party line, and that he definitely has a B (for Bryceson!) in his bonnet! A translated copy of the entry is shown below without further comment from me.
Manuel Ramirez was Federal Deputy Uruchurtu several times during the Porfiriato and 1 time during the first year in office Y. Francisco Madero. He drowned aboard the RMS Titanic as a passenger in first class that fateful night in the cold waters of the Atlantic. He was the only Mexican on board but it is falsely believed that there was another Mexican as crew member named "Anton Ferrary" whose biography is brief and confusing but all in the same biography indicates that Anton was NOT Mexican. Biography of Anton Ferrary presents an altered website "Encyclopedia Titanica" document in which an alteration of the word "Mescina" (Italy) treating of showing as "Mescico" (with "sc" without accent seen in the letter "e"). Anton is obviously Italian Ferrary because no Mexicans among the crew, but Italians. "Anton" is short for "Antonino" (Italian word) and the name "Ferrary".
After testing and studies dating from the disaster in 1912, Manuel Uruchurtu was declared "Hero of Chivalry" by the Government of Sonora, Mexico, by the fact of having given his place in the lifeboat to a woman of English origin called Elizabeth Ramell. Critics of this story of heroism have not presented any evidence so far to deny the documents submitted by some of the descendants of Manuel Uruchurtu (other descendants have no idea who was Manuel Uruchurtu). Among the critics is the writer who curiously Guadalupe Loaeza wrote in 2012 a book entitled "The Knight of the Titanic" under the guidance of Alexander Uruchurtu, nephew of Manuel Uruchurtu. Later, Guadalupe Loaeza publicly recanted this story falling into the lie of David Bryceson-of English origin and Elizabeth Ramell- biographer whose dismal research did not return bad data involving Manuel Uruchurtu. Even if that were the case, the lack of data does not deny a possible fact, if anything it would only crash into question but with so many documents supporting this act of chivalry do not understand why Mr. Bryceson aims to clean up the bad image compatriot Elizabeth as the story according to Manuel Uruchurtu Ramell lied to access the lifeboat Uruchurtu and save his life in those dramatic moments of the sinking. The full story of the lie Elizabeth Ramell to Uruchurtu can be seen in hundreds of pages on the internet as well as many evidence for the history and act of chivalry
Some of the photos shown here are signed and dedicated. In one Jacinto Pallares, father of law in Mexico and Manuel Uruchurtu teacher appears. In 2 of the photographs appears with his wife Gertrude.
The story goes that fate played a trick on Uruchurtu Manuel should not have died because the Titanic. First, Uruchurtu had missed the boat because the train taking him to the port of Cherbourg where the Titanic was late addressed. However, despite this delay, the Titanic sarpo also delayed, which gave time Uruchurtu address. Second, Uruchurtu should not address the Titanic but another liner called Paris, but switched tickets with colleague Guillermo Obregon who also was visiting with Porfirio Díaz and Ramón Corral, exiled in France. And finally, once having the Titanic hit the iceberg, Uruchurtu must address the lifeboat # 11 to be diplomatic, but in an act of chivalry decided to give up his seat to Elizabeth Ramell.
The price of the photos are in American dollars and is based on several elements: being a collection and not a single piece, its age (over 100 years), its size or format, the characters that appear Uruchurtu (Jacinto Pallares, its wife Gertrude, colleagues), firms Uruchurtu, dates, dedications, conservation status, the trajectory of Uruchurtu (lawyer, politician, writer and notary public), the rarity of the photos (I only know other 3 more) the importance for the history of Mexico and the world, be passenger 1st class passenger being drowned in the Titanic, the price of other similar photos with collectors, being the only Mexican on board the Titanic, to be officially declared "Hero of Chivalry" by a State, having a biographical book by an author recognized to commemorate the 100th anniversary of his death, uncle Ernesto Uruchurtu be former Regent of the City of Mexico, be the subject of several documentaries including one of the History Channel, etc.
I am at your disposal for any questions

I
Ioannis Georgiou
Member
This is ridiculous! Obviously they only want to do money with a made up and false story.
Javier Lopez Sevilla
Member
I welcome the participation of all in this issue because it is an interesting topic. I would like to know the reality (as much as you) and that's why I participate in this discussion. As you know I am a Mexican collector and fan of this issue. I am also a trader and that's why I put on sale some photos of Uruchurtu. We all want to know the truth in detail, the moments in which Elizabeth and Manuel found each other aboard the Titanic that fateful night in 1912, if it ever happened. However, I can not renounce to give my own opinion about all comments and evidence that have been placed in this and other forums. And my opinion is that all the evidence by the descendant of Uruchurtu is questionable. Yes. But life has taught me that "evidence" is stronger that "lack of evidence". Alejandro Garate Uruchurtu has always presented "evidence" and others simply have not presented "evidence" just "lack of evidence". We must pay special attention to the 1948 newspaper article in which an act of chivalry is mentioned (for me it looks there is a real story there). We need to deepen our research on the existing evidence, the evidence already found. It is okay that you seek new positive evidence elsewhere but if you do not find it please do not frustrate, Alejandro Garate Uruchurtu has already found it. I apologize for answering belatedly. I appreciate your comments.
Javier Lopez Sevilla
Member
About Anton Ferrary, Herrary, F. Lerrary, or whatever other surname, I can only say that the complete name is really doubtful. And forgive me but I can only say the same about the word "Mescico" or "Mescina". Nobody can deny it if we analyze letter by letter in the crew registration list photo. For me there is a strong doubt about Anton's nationality for serveral reasons: 1) the biography of Anton (performed by Dave Bryceson, UK; and Bill Wormstedt, USA) is wrong because is full of assumptions. It states that Anton migrated from Mexico to USA. It also states that "Anton" is "Antonio". We all know that "Anton" is Italian apocope from the Italian name "Antonino", not from the Mexican name "Antonio". "Toño" is apocope from "Antonio" in Mexico. In 50 years living in Mexico I have never met anyone called "Anton". 2) the surname is not Mexican either, any of the 3 surnames, 3) there were no "other" Mexicans among the crew members aboard Titanic but several from Italy and, 4) the word "Mescico" looks like "Mescina", Italy (strangely as the name of country of birth). Thanks for your attention.
Javier Lopez Sevilla
Member
Let me talk -in this post- a little bit about Elizabeth Ramell. She is the one mentioned in the Garate's story and the presumed woman who took the chivalry story to the present time because after surviving the sinking -according with the story- she came to Mexico to tell the facts to Uruchurtu's wife. In that meeting, there were at least 2 witnesses, one was a friend of Uruchurtu named "Joaquín Pita" (by the way, one of the photos I am selling is dedicated to this person). Mr. Pita was the one who wrote the newspaper article 36 years after the sinking and about 25 years after the meeting: in 1948.
Elizabeth Ramell survived by boarding lifeboat No. 11. Well, to this respect I made my own research and I found something very interesting. There were 20 adult women in the lifeboat 11. From these, 5 women were crew members (all from England) and the other 15 were passengers. These 15 passengers were resident at the time of the collapse in different countries: 6 in England, 5 in U.S., 1 in Germany, 1 in Italy, 1 in India, and 1 in France. According to the document submitted by Mr. Garate (newspaper article dated 1948), the person saved by Uruchurtu was from USA, so now we can focus our attention on the only women passengers, adult survivors, residing in the U.S., in lifeboat number 11.
These 5 women were:
1. Elizabeth Ramell. Second class passenger. We must remember that Ramell Elizabeth was born in England but moved to the U.S. since the early XX century, several years before the sinking. But note: she was a widow since 1911 and her child had died in 1906. Now look: according with the story, Elizabeth Ramell "...implored to be uploaded to lifeboat 11 since her husband and daughter were waiting for her in New York". This was a lie. Then, -the story says- Manuel Uruchurtu pitied and as an act of chivalry, decided to give his seat to the woman...". The exact way this event happened is really confusing since there are 2 versions.
2. Alice Silvey. She saved her life in the lifeboat 11, but her husband died on the Titanic. She was first-class passenger.
3. Jane Quick. She saved her life with her 2 daughters in lifeboat 11.
4. Marie Marthe Jerwan. She never had children. She was second class passenger. She was born in Switzerland but emigrate to the U.S.
5. Jennie Louise Hansen. Third class passenger. She never had children.
With this information, the only U.S.A. woman that fits Uruchurtu's story is "Elizabeth Ramell".
I think we should investigate more (if that is possible). For instance: which woman in lifeboat 11 could speak "perfect spanish", according with the evidence presented by Mr. Garate? Was that woman Elizabeth Ramell?
Have a nice day.
Elizabeth Ramell survived by boarding lifeboat No. 11. Well, to this respect I made my own research and I found something very interesting. There were 20 adult women in the lifeboat 11. From these, 5 women were crew members (all from England) and the other 15 were passengers. These 15 passengers were resident at the time of the collapse in different countries: 6 in England, 5 in U.S., 1 in Germany, 1 in Italy, 1 in India, and 1 in France. According to the document submitted by Mr. Garate (newspaper article dated 1948), the person saved by Uruchurtu was from USA, so now we can focus our attention on the only women passengers, adult survivors, residing in the U.S., in lifeboat number 11.
These 5 women were:
1. Elizabeth Ramell. Second class passenger. We must remember that Ramell Elizabeth was born in England but moved to the U.S. since the early XX century, several years before the sinking. But note: she was a widow since 1911 and her child had died in 1906. Now look: according with the story, Elizabeth Ramell "...implored to be uploaded to lifeboat 11 since her husband and daughter were waiting for her in New York". This was a lie. Then, -the story says- Manuel Uruchurtu pitied and as an act of chivalry, decided to give his seat to the woman...". The exact way this event happened is really confusing since there are 2 versions.
2. Alice Silvey. She saved her life in the lifeboat 11, but her husband died on the Titanic. She was first-class passenger.
3. Jane Quick. She saved her life with her 2 daughters in lifeboat 11.
4. Marie Marthe Jerwan. She never had children. She was second class passenger. She was born in Switzerland but emigrate to the U.S.
5. Jennie Louise Hansen. Third class passenger. She never had children.
With this information, the only U.S.A. woman that fits Uruchurtu's story is "Elizabeth Ramell".
I think we should investigate more (if that is possible). For instance: which woman in lifeboat 11 could speak "perfect spanish", according with the evidence presented by Mr. Garate? Was that woman Elizabeth Ramell?
Have a nice day.
Javier Lopez Sevilla
Member
And by the way, now I am offering 6 original Uruchurtu's photos for the same price. Have a nice day.
